Sharpening on stones with a guide

[pedder]

It is a really bad idea to convince someone via fora. It just doesn't work.

Cheers
Pedder, who is fine with or with out jig.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob. I am also a proponent of freehand sharpening; but to imply that there is a direct connection between the competency of the user and the use of honing jigs, is a somewhat questionable tact to employ.

Tactics don't come into it!
The beginners problem is that there is a lot of stuff for sale which looks as though it might be useful/essential, but nobody in the shop or catalogue is going to tell him he doesn't really need it.

 

[D_W]

Jacob. I am also a proponent of freehand sharpening; but to imply that there is a direct connection between the competency of the user and the use of honing jigs, is a somewhat questionable tact to employ.

There is probably a correlation. The hand-eye coordination and craftsman's sense that you have to develop to sharpen freehand is far less than what's required in a lot of woodworking operations like carving, etc.

There's also a separate question of what people do if they have to rely on a jig, but want to cut a moulding or sharpen carving tools. Getting away from jigs is inevitable if you want to avoid routers, etc, for those things. It's probably what motivated me, also....I recall when I first got a tormek, fiddling with a jig that would work with carving tools and turning tools ....it was ridiculous and 10 times as difficult as just freehanding.

 

[Graham Orm]

I'm in my 35th year of being a beginner. I am perfectly able to sharpen freehand but prefer the consistency that I get with a jig.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

In need of a tip here.

I'm sharpening plane irons and chisels with the scary sharp method and using one of the ten million clones of the eclipse guide, and everything's fine - because I can use a relatively long strip of sandpaper so I get a good bit of travel on it. And when I use the oilstones it's more or less okay as well because they're fairly long and easy to turn around. But I got some (really cheap, but I'll upgrade to proper DMZ or EZE-lap ones in a while) diamond stones and was using them this weekend and realised that they're so short that I'm getting about 2-3 inches of travel at most or the guide wheel goes off the stone and the angle changes (and if I start with the guide wheel off the stone and on the bench hook platform I use, I still only get 2-3 inches of movement before the wheel jumps up onto the stone). And since the stones are taped in place, spinning them round to avoid uneven wear is a little awkward.

I tried holding the angle by hand. And learned that when it comes to sharpening woodworking hand tools, I'm a pretty decent software engineer (hammer)

How do you guys manage to get round that? Inset the stones into the bench hook or something? Or do you just have to go and learn to do it without the guide?

Besides the obvious option of learning to hone freehand (my choice) ...

You need to think outside the box if you insist on using these small diamond stones: Ditch the Eclipse guide. Saw the end of a 2x4 at 30 degrees, and attach the blade to this so that the bevel is level with the top surface (build a U frame around the blade and use wedges to clamp it in place). Now stroke the diamond plates across the bevel on the blade.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

Jacob. I am also a proponent of freehand sharpening; but to imply that there is a direct connection between the competency of the user and the use of honing jigs, is a somewhat questionable tact to employ.

There is probably a correlation. The hand-eye coordination and craftsman's sense that you have to develop to sharpen freehand is far less than what's required in a lot of woodworking operations like carving, etc.

There's also a separate question of what people do if they have to rely on a jig, but want to cut a moulding or sharpen carving tools. Getting away from jigs is inevitable if you want to avoid routers, etc, for those things. It's probably what motivated me, also....I recall when I first got a tormek, fiddling with a jig that would work with carving tools and turning tools ....it was ridiculous and 10 times as difficult as just freehanding.

Well exactly.
Woodwork itself is more difficult than sharpening - just as drawing is more difficult than sharpening a pencil.
If you can do one you can do the other - you just have to stop whinging on about how difficult it is (sharpening that is; woodwork and drawing you are entitled to moan a bit!)

 

[D_W]

Jacob. I am also a proponent of freehand sharpening; but to imply that there is a direct connection between the competency of the user and the use of honing jigs, is a somewhat questionable tact to employ.

There is probably a correlation. The hand-eye coordination and craftsman's sense that you have to develop to sharpen freehand is far less than what's required in a lot of woodworking operations like carving, etc.

There's also a separate question of what people do if they have to rely on a jig, but want to cut a moulding or sharpen carving tools. Getting away from jigs is inevitable if you want to avoid routers, etc, for those things. It's probably what motivated me, also....I recall when I first got a tormek, fiddling with a jig that would work with carving tools and turning tools ....it was ridiculous and 10 times as difficult as just freehanding.

Well exactly.
Woodwork itself is more difficult than sharpening - just as drawing is more difficult than sharpening a pencil.
If you can do one you can do the other - you just have to stop whinging on about how difficult it is (sharpening that is; woodwork and drawing you are entitled to moan a bit!)

Not to mention that when you get a good sense of geometry and edge polish (two different things for someone to consider), and learn to get both accomplished freehand, you can sharpen anything. Garden tools, utility knives, kitchen knives, pocket knives, scissors, carving tools, moulding plane irons, little blades that come in a kitchen machine, etc.

 

[Jacob]

............

There is probably a correlation. The hand-eye coordination and craftsman's sense that you have to develop to sharpen freehand is far less than what's required in a lot of woodworking operations like carving, etc.

There's also a separate question of what people do if they have to rely on a jig, but want to cut a moulding or sharpen carving tools. Getting away from jigs is inevitable if you want to avoid routers, etc, for those things. It's probably what motivated me, also....I recall when I first got a tormek, fiddling with a jig that would work with carving tools and turning tools ....it was ridiculous and 10 times as difficult as just freehanding.

Well exactly.
Woodwork itself is more difficult than sharpening - just as drawing is more difficult than sharpening a pencil.
If you can do one you can do the other - you just have to stop whinging on about how difficult it is (sharpening that is; woodwork and drawing you are entitled to moan a bit!)

Not to mention that when you get a good sense of geometry and edge polish (two different things for someone to consider), and learn to get both accomplished freehand, you can sharpen anything. Garden tools, utility knives, kitchen knives, pocket knives, scissors, carving tools, moulding plane irons, little blades that come in a kitchen machine, etc.

And you can move on to freehand forming spindle or moulding plane profiles (on a wheel that is, but a needle file might help).

 

[MattRoberts]

I ditched my eclipse clone because it was so unbalanced and I was doing more harm than good. I got the veritas honing guide instead, which is pretty awesome. Much bigger roller, and a very easy to use quick set jig. Also, with regards to your issue, a bigger roller = more room to roll over a piece of wood that's level with your diamond stone

 

[Bm101]

The yellow stuff is standard paper, not wet/dry, but top tip: you can use almost any paper 'wet' as long as you use oil, white spirit or WD-40, it's only water that makes them fall apart. Also in case you don't know, you can sharpen on papers without a lubricant as they can't clog in the same way as a stone.

Did not know that ED, so thankyou. That's a great tip. I have about 4 rolls of different grit Oakey already. (Gotta love having a whole house to do up bit by bit. Again....)
I also have a few plane blades to do from scratch that are in such a state they ideally need regrinding on a wheel. Look like they been gnawed by rats. Jig or no jig its gets a bit tiresome doing it by hand for that long and then going through all the grits. I know it only needs doing once but you get my drift. The idea was to get that bit of 3 or 4 foot bit of marble I mentioned as a bed (for a coupla quid), then tape a few grits at a few feet long next to each other. Industrialise the process a little. (hammer)
Once they're all done I'll still have my stones to sharpen and hone on normally.

A unique combination of stone these. They are an experiment by Lie Nielsen and Silverline, a new amalgamated type. 1/4 oilstone, 1/4 waterstone, 1/4 diamond, 1/4 scarysharp. You can buy optional extra addons like Kitchen Wall and Concrete Block but these are a bit of a gimmick I've found. I've rated my sharpened stuff against (included for the price!) the sharpness swatch. I reckon I'm getting upwards of 4.2! A big improvement on 3.7 and definitely noticeable when I squint at it. In the right light. I haven't been able to cut the arm hairs they sent me in a little bottle but I'm getting there.
You guys should definitely check it out.
They say there's no substitute for experience but as a beginner its probably advanced my wood working experience by a vector of 7. It said in the manual (full colour pics!) thats equivalent to 'approximately' (they used those quote marks in the Guide) Nine Full Years as a Complete WoodWorker!!! (again, that's verbatim).
What's not too like!?

(At some point I fell down the rabbit hole making this post. Shhh Don't tell anyone though! And if you're offended, I'm only laughing at myself so don't be. It's been a Very Long Week . )

 

[MarkDennehy]

They are an experiment by Lie Nielsen and Silverline, a new amalgamated type. 1/4 oilstone, 1/4 waterstone, 1/4 diamond, 1/4 scarysharp.

The diamond and the scarysharp, no worries, but how do you mix the oil and water to keep the oilstone oiled and the waterstone watered?
I mean, you *could* always add an egg yolk for the lecithin and make an oil/water emulsion that might work, but that seems like it could clog the paper for the scarysharp.

 

[Bm101]

You're nearly therewith eggs! You need ostrich eggs according to the pamphlet. Miniature ostrich Eggs no less. Their consistency means they wont clog and contain just the right amount of lubricant for the various media. They are very very rare and therefore very very expensive. Understandable really. I for one have never seen a miniature ostrich. So they must be rare.
Luckily I have ooohhh, half a dozen going spare at the right price.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Egg yolk, oil and water?

Erm - jar of mayonnaise? With extra E-numbers, if you buy the non-organic one!

 

[ED65]

Mark, further to what Derek was saying about bridging the sharpening media here's a good implementation of that idea:

A guide to making this here on the Woodsmith etips site here.

 

[ED65]

I also have a few plane blades to do from scratch that are in such a state they ideally need regrinding on a wheel. Look like they been gnawed by rats. Jig or no jig its gets a bit tiresome doing it by hand for that long and then going through all the grits. I know it only needs doing once but you get my drift. The idea was to get that bit of 3 or 4 foot bit of marble I mentioned as a bed (for a coupla quid), then tape a few grits at a few feet long next to each other. Industrialise the process a little. (hammer)

Industrialising the process somewhat is certainly worth doing if you have a major amount of reshaping to do, increasing the length of each stroke that much will dramatically increase the rate of metal removal. This is actually the ideal job for a guide since it's practically impossible for anyone to hold angle with a stroke 2' long.

You don't need a big slab of granite or marble for this though! I long stretch of kitchen counter will do the job perfectly well.

On the going through the grits bit also, you do realise you don't need to do that for a primary bevel? Unless you're working towards a single flat bevel that first grind can stay rough. So for example if you reform the edge using 80 grit alox paper at 25° you can stop there and immediately switch to your stones to hone as you would normally, at 30° or whatever. It's only that secondary bevel and a bit of the back that need to be honed fine/finer, the primary can look like it was scraped over a brick for all the wood will care.

 

[Jacob]

Mark, further to what Derek was saying about bridging the sharpening media here's a good implementation of that idea:

A guide to making this here on the Woodsmith etips site here.

Why not just hold the chisel at 30º? What does the jig doing that you can't do? Perhaps you hadn't noticed but the chisel even has a convenient little handle to hold it with - no need to bodge up another holding device!

 

[Jacob]

.... it's practically impossible for anyone to hold angle with a stroke 2' long.
....

This is simply not true. Any fool can do it. Why does everybody talk themselves out of these very simple little skills?

But in any case you don't need to be too precise grinding - it only has to be slightly less than 30º and it doesn't matter if it's a bit convex either. In fact rounded bevel grinding is very useful with sand paper sharpening - you start carefully at 30 or 25º and dip the handle as you go. This just about eliminates the risk of nicking the paper as most of the grinding is on the bevel. It also means you can use more force and do it faster.
NB the easiest way to fix your paper nice and flat is to use thin paper backed, not cloth backed, and to wet it in a pool of white spirit on your slab (or planer table etc). The wetness will hold it down much flatter than glue, and it's easy to lift off and replace. Helps if you store the paper between boards so it's flat to start with.

 

[MIGNAL]

To be honest if I had to use that jig I'd give up w'working altogether. Take up knitting instead.

 

[Jacob]

To be honest if I had to use that jig I'd give up w'working altogether. Take up knitting instead.

No chance - knitting is a bloody sight more difficult than sharpening chisels!

 

[MIGNAL]

No, but it would be much less tedious than using that jig, which seems to be a bit like climbing Everest to avoid stepping over a brick.