Sharpening on stones with a guide

[MarkDennehy]

In need of a tip here.

I'm sharpening plane irons and chisels with the scary sharp method and using one of the ten million clones of the eclipse guide, and everything's fine - because I can use a relatively long strip of sandpaper so I get a good bit of travel on it. And when I use the oilstones it's more or less okay as well because they're fairly long and easy to turn around. But I got some (really cheap, but I'll upgrade to proper DMZ or EZE-lap ones in a while) diamond stones and was using them this weekend and realised that they're so short that I'm getting about 2-3 inches of travel at most or the guide wheel goes off the stone and the angle changes (and if I start with the guide wheel off the stone and on the bench hook platform I use, I still only get 2-3 inches of movement before the wheel jumps up onto the stone). And since the stones are taped in place, spinning them round to avoid uneven wear is a little awkward.

I tried holding the angle by hand. And learned that when it comes to sharpening woodworking hand tools, I'm a pretty decent software engineer (hammer)

How do you guys manage to get round that? Inset the stones into the bench hook or something? Or do you just have to go and learn to do it without the guide?

 

[Graham Orm]

Can't you pick up some bigger stones?

 

[Jacob]

.... Or do you just have to go and learn to do it without the guide?

Yep.
It's well worth the effort and makes sharpening so much easier. Doesn't take long to get the hang of it - 20 minutes or so.
What you won't get is that precise engineered appearance of careful jig use, but that's no great loss.

 

[Graham Orm]

I use these. http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ri ... one-951777 and finish with a strop.

 

[Graham Orm]

There are divided opinions about using a guide. The best thing to do is try both techniques and see what you find easiest. I've switched between free hand and using a guide over the years but have never been completely satisfied with the free hand technique. As Jacob rightly points out the only way to get a truly uniform edge is with a guide. However this involves a minute or so to set up so if you don't have that minute to spare, a quick freehand rub will sometimes get you a usable edge.

 

[AndyT]

As you have found, a jig like yours needs a level surface.

If you want to use the jig, you could try surrounding the cheap stone with a surface at the same level. So, depending how thick it is, you could try surrounding it with thin plywood or layers of anything suitable you can find. Maybe dense card or plastic with a top layer of sheet metal. Or you could excavate (rout) a shallow depression in a piece of hardwood.

You could also try a different sort of guide which references off the bench top rather than the stone. BugBear has shown a design for one on here and on his website.

(At some point you will need to decide whether this is less or more trouble than doing without the jig, but that's not what you asked!)

 

[D_W]

In need of a tip here.

I'm sharpening plane irons and chisels with the scary sharp method and using one of the ten million clones of the eclipse guide, and everything's fine - because I can use a relatively long strip of sandpaper so I get a good bit of travel on it. And when I use the oilstones it's more or less okay as well because they're fairly long and easy to turn around. But I got some (really cheap, but I'll upgrade to proper DMZ or EZE-lap ones in a while) diamond stones and was using them this weekend and realised that they're so short that I'm getting about 2-3 inches of travel at most or the guide wheel goes off the stone and the angle changes (and if I start with the guide wheel off the stone and on the bench hook platform I use, I still only get 2-3 inches of movement before the wheel jumps up onto the stone). And since the stones are taped in place, spinning them round to avoid uneven wear is a little awkward.

I tried holding the angle by hand. And learned that when it comes to sharpening woodworking hand tools, I'm a pretty decent software engineer (hammer)

How do you guys manage to get round that? Inset the stones into the bench hook or something? Or do you just have to go and learn to do it without the guide?

The ultimate goal is to ditch the guide. I can't think of an easier way to sharpen than a primary grind, and then working a single small bevel with one stone and a strop (the best "one stone" being a washita stone).

But until you get to something like that, you could build a caddy for your stone to go in where the caddy butts up against the stone at the same height with a run of four or five inches. Keep the wheel of the guide on the caddy and the iron on the stone.

 

[Jacob]

..., a quick freehand rub will sometimes get you a usable edge.

If you do it properly it will always get you a usable edge, quickly and easily.
That's how everybody did from the beginning of time, all round the world, with no problem at all, until the very recent introduction of sharpening jigs, when sharpening became difficult. The OPs prob is typical of this.

 

[ED65]

I tried holding the angle by hand. And learned that when it comes to sharpening woodworking hand tools, I'm a pretty decent software engineer (hammer)

:lol: Only way to get better at it is practice. And believe me, I sucked at it when I first started! For me, stropping as the final step helped a lot, but what helped the most was learning that it was okay if the bevel wasn't flat. This was contrary to what all older books said and they couldn't be wrong, right?

I would very much not agree with Jacob that it takes 20 minutes to learn to freehand, when learning this without an old hand right there to see what you're not doing right and give corrections some people struggle for ages to do it well (and that's the only standard to aim for: it's a good edge or nothing). No matter how tough you personally find it I do think it's worth persevering because freehand honing can be so fast, at best you can get a decent edge back in under 30 seconds, which is before most people using a jig will have finished tightening it up.

Now despite me saying all this there's no reason you can't continue to use your guide on the short cheapie diamond hones you have. That 2-3" of movement you describe is more than adequate, I know a few sharpeners who choose to use less than 1" of their material. Wear on diamond hones is not much to worry about, but don't press hard and work as much of the width of the plate as possible.

Either way, I think you'll find you won't need to upgrade to EZE-laps or DMZs, at least until your current plates are thoroughly worn out. In a few years.

 

[Paul Chapman]

If you are using an Eclipse-style honing guide, I find that the 8"x3" size DMT stones work well.

If you are going to use diamond stones, you will find that you need something a bit finer to get a super-sharp edge. I have found that a very effective method is to use diamond paste and oil on a piece of wood. I learnt this technique from Garrett Hack and here's a video of him demonstrating the technique http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/v ... hisel.aspx

You can, of course, make the piece of wood whatever size you wish. The DMT diamond paste is available from Classic Hand Tools https://www.classichandtools.com/acatal ... mpund.html

You only need to use a small amount of the paste so it's very economical.

Hope this helps

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Jacob]

.....
I would very much not agree with Jacob that it takes 20 minutes to learn to freehand, when learning this without an old hand right there to see what you're not doing right and give corrections some people struggle for ages to do it well.....

Yes OK a bit of supervision would help enormously! But it isn't difficult and it does get easier.

 

[D_W]

.....
I would very much not agree with Jacob that it takes 20 minutes to learn to freehand, when learning this without an old hand right there to see what you're not doing right and give corrections some people struggle for ages to do it well.....

Yes OK a bit of supervision would help enormously! But it isn't difficult and it does get easier.

I'll beat the drum again. One stone to start with. Primary grind about 25 degrees and lift the iron about five degrees...just a bit, rub the iron on the stone, flip it over on the back (same as with a guide), work the back, then if needed, a couple of light strokes back to front and then strop on bare leather to remove the wire edge.

The washita is the easiest stone to do this with because it cuts reasonably fast, but it also doesn't leave a really stiff wire edge if finished with a light touch.

If the edge gets too steep, go back to the grinder and remove all both the last half hair of it and do the same thing again.

Making the edge small and using a single stone makes it very hard to fail.

 

[Bm101]

Without getting involved in the hand/jig row, the op asked for a way to get around having a short surface to sharpen on. My new firm has a lockup under some Bermondsey arches right next to a granite marble supplier. They have loads of 3 foot offcut extras stacked against the yard wall. Does anyone know of a source to get rolls of wet n dry or alternative. I can only seem to find sheets. I'm saying hello to the fella there all the time now. Mornin' mate! Give it a week or two and I'll be looking at one of them big flat slabs in my shed lol. :twisted:

 

[D_W]

Without getting involved in the hand/jig row, the op asked for a way to get around having a short surface to sharpen on. My new firm has a lockup under some Bermondsey arches right next to a granite marble supplier. They have loads of 3 foot offcut extras stacked against the yard wall. Does anyone know of a source to get rolls of wet n dry or alternative. I can only seem to find sheets. I'm saying hello to the fella there all the time now. Mornin' mate! Give it a week or two and I'll be looking at one of them big flat slabs in my shed lol. :twisted:

The reasonable solution was to make another surface in the same plane as the stone and leave the guide on that surface and the blade on the hone. It doesn't really go further than that.

That said, where are you for rolls? In the US, mirka PSA rolls are in abundance for about $18 for 30 feet of gold aluminum oxide 5 inches wide, and they are fabulous. I don't know if there's something similar for wet and dry, but I wouldn't use wet and dry to hone if fine aluminum oxide paper was available, anyway.

If you can't find something local at a supply shop, see if anyone is selling mirka or something else similar in country on ebay.

 

[Bm101]

Thank you D_W. I wasn't disputing what far more experienced people said, just after a solution to my own problem. I'll take a look on ebay etc. As a beginner I use a jig, I'm just coming to see it's shortcomings too. I'd love to have 20 minutes or a day with someone who could show me how to sharpen by hand properly. The issue is I have to learn everything by scratch (no pun intended.) With so much to learn sometimes for a beginner it's very tempting to take the seemingly easier route. Thanks for the info on the search terms. Much appreciated.
Regards
Chris

 

[D_W]

Thank you D_W. I wasn't disputing what far more experienced people said, just after a solution to my own problem. I'll take a look on ebay etc. As a beginner I use a jig, I'm just coming to see it's shortcomings too. I'd love to have 20 minutes or a day with someone who could show me how to sharpen by hand properly. The issue is I have to learn everything by scratch (no pun intended.) With so much to learn sometimes for a beginner it's very tempting to take the seemingly easier route. Thanks for the info on the search terms. Much appreciated.
Regards
Chris

We've all been there. I used a jig for several years, and nobody told me not to, either. It worked. I stopped using it eventually because it took too long and I wanted to sharpen carving tools, skew irons, narrow chisels and all manner of things that require serious fiddling with jigs.

If you always use a jig for your flat iron and it makes you happy, that's all the farther it needs to go. If it starts to bug you when you can't sharpen certain things in it, or if you'd like to halve your sharpening time, it's like anything else. I had a college professor who always said "learning is painful", but the pain in this case is short lived, even if it's not mandatory.

 

[Rorschach]

I used to sharpen freehand for just about all my tools but I now prefer the jig. Not only is it more aesthetically pleasing but I find it just as quick and easy as freehand but much more consistent and I get less screw ups. I made a setting jig from a few scraps of MDF so putting the chisel or plane blade into the guide takes a matter of seconds and I use the same angle for everything as it seems to work fine for me. DO what you are comfortable with

 

[ED65]

Does anyone know of a source to get rolls of wet n dry or alternative. I can only seem to find sheets.

Any decent builder's merchants or even a hardware store could have smaller rolls of abrasive paper or cloth, in 5m or 10m lengths. It's usually reddish but other colours are seen, including a rather offputting yellow sold by Mirka I think (you see Paul Sellers rip pieces off a roll of this on a few of his vids).

The yellow stuff is standard paper, not wet/dry, but top tip: you can use almost any paper 'wet' as long as you use oil, white spirit or WD-40, it's only water that makes them fall apart. Also in case you don't know, you can sharpen on papers without a lubricant as they can't clog in the same way as a stone.

If you don't happen to have anywhere nearby that does sell rolls you can pick them up fairly easily on Amazon with of course free P&P. If you're searching online for sources it can be worth using the abrasive type as your search term, aluminium oxide, rather than looking for sandpaper which brings up all types.

I'd love to have 20 minutes or a day with someone who could show me how to sharpen by hand properly.

Been there, have the t-shirt! In the absence of that, have you watched Sellers's video where he preps one of the Aldi chisels? I think that may be the ideal learning video for someone embarking on sharpening by hand, I know it helped me iron out the last few wrinkles.

The issue is I have to learn everything by scratch (no pun intended.) With so much to learn sometimes for a beginner it's very tempting to take the seemingly easier route.

There's no shame in using a guide. Many full-time professional woodworkers won't sharpen without one!

And while I'm a firm believer in freehanding I don't blind myself to the reality that in 99.9% of hands the edges produced with a good jig are superior to freehanded edges.

 

[Jacob]

...e!

And while I'm a firm believer in freehanding I don't blind myself to the reality that in 99.9% of hands the edges produced with a good jig are superior to freehanded edges.

Jigs make neater looking edges but freehand can be as sharp as you want 100% of the time.
It's a pity (and rather strange) that so many people have somehow become convinced that it's difficult. It isn't. Any fool can hold a chisel at near enough 30º - then you just wiggle it about, or to and fro, on the stone. It's about as difficult as sharpening a pencil.
Jigs are fairly recent gadgets - but previously everybody managed perfectly well without them. There was never felt to be a need but once they were invented by speculative tool makers they took off, only because they look a good idea, especially to beginners.

 

[swagman]

Jacob. I am also a proponent of freehand sharpening; but to imply that there is a direct connection between the competency of the user and the use of honing jigs, is a somewhat questionable tact to employ.

I am also a proponent on lightly jointing the toothline of a hand saw before filing the tooth gullets; but I choose not to make a judgement call on the competency level of those that don't follow this same methodology.

Stewie;