Seasonal movement

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Sheffield Tony

Ghost of the disenchanted
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Over on this thread, discussingsaw handles, swagman posted this link. Now, I've also had my attention drawn to wood movement by my John Moseley badger plane, which parted company with its handle the other day as I was planing a big rebate.

Anyway, all the articles I Googled, and the one above, suggest that wood shrinks in winter and expands in summer. This is quite contrary to my experience - I notice that most of the articles I were American; is it their climate ?
 
It depends on how cold it gets, if it's below freezing then air cannot support any water vapour, therefore becomes very dry. Warmth in a workshop / house causes the wood to dry out due to the dry air. In summer where the air is warm it can hold more moisture than cold air, high humidity causes the wood to expand.

In the UK we tend to have higher humidity out of summer and dryer air in summer.
 
I had a birch strip floor which "bubbled" for a couple of weeks mid winter, and opened up in the summer. I did read an article on organ building in the US, which is apparently much different to the organ building in continental Europe as the US seasonal expansion and contraction is so much worse. I had a hydrometer in my workshop and the humidity was consistently higher in the summer - it went from a low of 55% to a high of about 95%.
 
Generally speaking we tend to get higher humidity in the summer. Of course it varies from day to day and it's quite possible to have a higher reading in Winter than in Summer. The lowest I've experienced was near 25% RH. That was a few years ago when we had that unexpected bout of snow near Easter time.
I don't really think there is much point in adjusting Plane soles (for example) for winter or summer humidity. I watch humidity daily and anything below say 35% RH is fairly rare, anything above 70 % RH too. For the last few weeks it's hovered around 50% RH + or - 10%. Of course that's my experience in my workshop.
 
On the original subject of the loose plane tote, it may well have been glue fatigue. Not unknown to me with some of my old woodies.

After all, a Moseley plane is going to be well over 100 years old.........

All best
 
Sheffield Tony":3u32ueh6 said:
I notice that most of the articles I were American; is it their climate ?

Yes it is, furthermore it isn't even their climate in the entire country. Woodworkers in coastal California and Alaska continually moan about the "wood swells in summer" articles, because they (like us) have a northern hemisphere maritime climate as opposed to the continental climate of the rest of America.

Follow the evidence of your own eyes. In the UK wood left outdoors, even under shelter outdoors, will tend to swell in the winter and shrink in the summer. Indoors UK wood will follow the dictates of the microclimate prevailing in that particular house, so wood next to a radiator may indeed shrink in the winter when the heating's on, but wood in an unheated but well ventilated attic will tend to follow the outdoor profile and swell in the winter.

Here's the Met Office demonstrating over many years that relative humidity in the UK is indeed higher in the winter and lower in the summer.

http://ukclimateprojections.metoffice.g ... iaid=87923
 
Ah thanks Custard. That agrees with my eyes. All goes to show the danger of reading things on the World Wide Web without taking note of where it is coming from !

The badger plane now has it's handle back. Something had definitely moved; the handle was maybe 1.5mm narrower then the mortice it was meant to fit into, once I had carefully cleaned all the old glue away. I used a couple of "shims" of beech to make it a snug fit again, all fixed with hide glue. I wonder if the wood for the plane body was not selected from better seasoned stock than the material used for the handle ? I can't see any other suggestion of it being anything other than the original handle.

I know it is not really woodwork, but on a similar topic I was in a discussion about chair seat weaving with seagrass the other day, and we were discussing how to get a tight weave. One person said that he dampened it before weaving, but I'm not sure that is right - I would assume that, like wood, the fibres swell laterally more than longitudinally, so because of the twisting it would get tighter when damp - so best woven dry ?
 
Sheffield Tony":1xxapnz0 said:
... all the articles I Googled, and the one above, suggest that wood shrinks in winter and expands in summer. This is quite contrary to my experience - I notice that most of the articles I were American; is it their climate ?
I admit I can't quite puzzle out the relevance of wood movement caused by changes in in relative humidity (RH) leading to the handle of your plane parting from the body, but I may be able to shed some light on wood movement.

Here in the UK, dry wood, i.e., wood at 20% MC or below, loses moisture during the summer and gains moisture during winter if kept in sheltered locations exposed to the elements, e.g., open sided sheds, barns, etc, and the wood tends to hover between roughly 17- 20% MC. Externally, relative humidity (RH) is typically lower during summer than winter, and RH is the primary factor determining wood MC, assuming the wood is not soaked by water, e.g., rain, snow, submerging in water, etc.

Conversely, the RH situation in houses and other habitable buildings is usually the reverse of external RH seasonal fluctuations. Typically, but not always, habitable buildings show lower atmospheric RH numbers in winter than summer, so wood tends to shrink during winter and expand during summer. The reason for this is cold, winter air cannot hold as much actual water vapour as warmer summer air, and the generally limited air entering a house during winter is usually heated, thus lowering RH further. In the summer, people open windows and doors to help keep cool, and this lets air in. Typically, RH in such buildings fluctuates between about 40% RH in winter (admittedly on the low side, and largely affected by the building's structure, its insulation, the glazing, etc) and about 65% in the summer. Typically, wood tends to range between about 8 - 9% MC (winter) up to 11% - 13% MC (summer).

Below are some other typical numbers.

15-19% wood MC. Buildings with poor insulation, single glazing, minimal or no heating, et cetera, e.g., sheds, rarely heated workshops, churches, et cetera.

10-14% wood MC. Buildings with intermittent heating providing room temperatures between 12- 21ºC (54ºF- 70ºF).

6- 8% wood MC. Buildings and rooms kept very warm (21ºC+ [or 70ºF+]) e.g., hospitals, storage facilities, museums, or wood used near radiators, fires, south facing sun rooms, et cetera.

All of the above need qualification with caveats. For example, the western side of the British Isles is generally wetter than the eastern side, north is colder and damper than the south, insulation and climate control systems vary significantly from one habitable building to another, e.g., an old, stone built country house is likely to have quite a different internal seasonal micro-climate to a modern house incorporating the latest climate control technology. Slainte.
 
"Externally, relative humidity (RH) is typically lower during summer than winter,..."
Not where I live it isn't - it's ALWAYS higher in the summer. Or at least it has been for the thirteen years I've had a hydrometer. Today Cornwall is forecast 98%.
 
You have to make the distinction between outdoor and indoor humidity. Better to monitor indoor humidity because that's where the vast majority of our tools and our furniture reside.
Guitars/Violins are built in a RH of around 50% (at least the majority of them are). The relatively thin woods and string tension mean that they are very susceptible to the wood cracking. Keeping such an instrument in higher humidity than 50% isn't usually a problem. The danger is when the RH dips below 35%. As the wood dries out the thin timbers are in danger of cracking. Winter is virtually always the danger time. 50% RH is deemed a 'safe average' for most Western and N.American countries. It's hardly ideal for desert conditions though or indeed areas that experience high RH levels throughout the year.
 
Humidity is the problem, and musical instrument makers have to be very aware of it because of the thin plates we use (sub 2mm in the case of my ukuleles) and to guard against its likely effects.

If the object is built in higher humidity than where it will live then the wood will shrink. There are various ways of coping:

1. Shrinkage is minimal along the grain, but can be substantial across the grain. Quarter-sawn (vertical grain) wood shrinks least. Some species (ebony, used for fingerboards is a good example) shrink more than others.

2. If the wood is fixed, as in musical instruments, then building in the same or lower humidity than the final destination is best. If the top or back of a guitar swells it will tend to dome, which isn't usually a huge problem, and domes are commonly built in partly for this reason. If it shrinks it's likely to crack. Glueing the thing together in high humidity is a recipe for disaster later.

3. One way to cope is not to fix the wood in place, e.g. floating panels in doors.

4. The worst option is a cycle of expansion and contraction, which will crack thick pieces of wood even if they are not fixed, though thin plates might survive.

US instrument makers have a real problem in those parts of the country which are very cold in winter, as the air then is very dry. To make things worse, US central heating runs far hotter than here, so 5% humidity indoors is common and has destroyed many an instrument. Owners have to humidify their houses, or at least their instrument cases, to avoid this.

Humidity swings in the UK are much less dramatic, but can be extreme in micro-environments indoors. A friend of mine suffered huge cracks in a uke I made him because he lived for a year in an attic which was really hot in the summer and freezing cold in the winter. Wooden objects near radiators will suffer in the winter unless built with this in mind (but then they will swell in the summer, you can't win).

And I see Mignal said much the same as I was typing.
 
Ive been trying to learn about this subject.

One question, if anyone knows the answer. In the context of gluing up.

How long does the wood have to be exposed to a higher humidity for it to br relevant?

As the rule is with air drying they say an inch per year. Is the rate of change much different for fully seasoned wood/does wood take on moisture more rapidly than loses? Would you still follow the year per inch rule, taking it down to fractiona of an inch?
 
phil.p":12m1zu2u said:
"Externally, relative humidity (RH) is typically lower during summer than winter,..."
Not where I live it isn't - it's ALWAYS higher in the summer. Or at least it has been for the thirteen years I've had a hydrometer. Today Cornwall is forecast 98%.
Well, I did say typically! And I included a couple of caveats at the end of my post, one of which mentioned British Isles east/west 'wetness' differences - I had places like Cornwall, west Wales and western Scotland in mind as I typed, ha, ha. Slainte.
 
Tetsuaiga":5s3k6dy4 said:
Ive been trying to learn about this subject.

One question, if anyone knows the answer. In the context of gluing up.

How long does the wood have to be exposed to a higher humidity for it to br relevant?

As the rule is with air drying they say an inch per year. Is the rate of change much different for fully seasoned wood/does wood take on moisture more rapidly than loses? Would you still follow the year per inch rule, taking it down to fractiona of an inch?

For thin plates (2mm) I believe an hour is enough to take on significant moisture. Once in a lower humidity environment I'd want to leave it at least overnight to be sure it had dried out enough. But mine is an application where getting it wrong can ruin the entire work, so I'm cautious.

Thicker wood will change more slowly, but I have no experience with that and humidity. I believe cheap moisture meters are available, though I've not used them myself.
 
Tetsuaiga":e9dq6htq said:
One question, if anyone knows the answer. In the context of gluing up.
How long does the wood have to be exposed to a higher humidity for it to br relevant?
Do you mean relevance during glue-up or after? Assuming the former, the vast majority of adhesives are formulated to work only on dry wood. By definition, 'dry' means wood at, or below, 20% MC. Above that, they generally fail as I can testify from personal observation. A main exception I can think of are the polyurethane adhesive formulations, which will work well, or very well on wet wood, albeit with a lot of foaming.

Tetsuaiga":e9dq6htq said:
As the rule is with air drying they say an inch per year. Is the rate of change much different for fully seasoned wood/does wood take on moisture more rapidly than loses? Would you still follow the year per inch rule, taking it down to fractiona of an inch?
Generally, wood adsorbs moisture more readily than it desorbs it. The year per inch rule for seasoning wood using air drying methods isn't really a rule, it's more a guideline. Some wood species dry quickly, and others don't. 1" thick boards of native ash, for instance, usually air dry from green to about 20- 25% in six months or less: thicker stuff takes a little longer. European oak is a slow drying species, and the inch per year guideline is closer to the norm, e.g., roughly 1" of thickness per year, so 2" thick stuff may well take a couple of years to dry: and 5" - 7" thick oak may never get below 30% or 40% MC at the core through pure air drying, although it will eventually if it's used as beams or posts of some sort in a habitable building, although these beams or posts will probably develop significant splitting. Incidentally, it's rare for air dried wood in the UK to dry below about 18- 20% MC, unless supplemental drying is undertaken, e.g., kilning, moving the wood to a dry building, etc.

However, this inch per year thing sometimes cited is for seasoning wood which may at the outset be anywhere between about 50% MC, even 100% MC, or more. It's not really relevant in the case of wood that's already dried to below fibre saturation point (FSP) generally ~30% MC. But in service, wood can gain and lose a few percentage points of moisture in quite short time scales. For example, a piece of wood between 18 - 25 mm thick, at 8% MC (indicating it's been in average RH conditions of roughly 43% for a while) placed in an average atmospheric RH of 75% can move close to 14.5% MC in about a week, especially if there's no physical barrier to water vapour (polish, paint, etc) to slow down the passage of the vapour. Slainte.
 
Hi Sgian.

I mean gluing up with regard to something like an instrument where your worried about wood movement causing damage. Not to do with the glue, but what's best in as assembly sense.
 
profchris":39vodo1p said:
Tetsuaiga":39vodo1p said:
Ive been trying to learn about this subject.

One question, if anyone knows the answer. In the context of gluing up.

How long does the wood have to be exposed to a higher humidity for it to br relevant?

As the rule is with air drying they say an inch per year. Is the rate of change much different for fully seasoned wood/does wood take on moisture more rapidly than loses? Would you still follow the year per inch rule, taking it down to fractiona of an inch?

For thin plates (2mm) I believe an hour is enough to take on significant moisture. Once in a lower humidity environment I'd want to leave it at least overnight to be sure it had dried out enough. But mine is an application where getting it wrong can ruin the entire work, so I'm cautious.

Thicker wood will change more slowly, but I have no experience with that and humidity. I believe cheap moisture meters are available, though I've not used them myself.


Thanks. That's faster than I expected. I've been trying to reduce humidity in my workshop recently as it's particularly humid this week, at least 75% outside. I bought a 250w 10litre dehumidifier off ebay but it doesn't seem to be able to bring humidity level under 59%. I might think about using a storage chest with light bulb inside as that's supposed to work well.

I work with instruments too but nothing as too sophisticated.
 
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