Rubbish Joinery

[custard]

A local builder called me a few days ago to see if I could machine him up some custom door linings in Oak.

I know almost nothing about joinery work, but following his plans was straightforward. So this morning I dropped them off at his job. While there I saw some of the other, more "standard" door linings he was fitting. They were short hardwood staves, about 22mm x 22mm x 200mm, all glued up together and then wrapped with an Oak veneer. They didn't look particularly good to me, but I'm no expert. When I pointed this out he said those were a long way from being the worst, and there are some door linings that are just MDF wrapped with veneer.

I was shocked, how can the weight of a door be hung from less than an inch of MDF?

A question to the joiners on the forum, is that really representative of modern joinery work?

 

[ColeyS1]

That doesn't sound very good at all. Sometimes all people see is the money that can be saved at the time. It's a false economy trying to cut corners and use inferior materials/products.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[AndyT]

They're very unlikely to read this, so I can add that some friends recently had some softwood windows installed which they were surprisingly pleased with.
The surrounding trim - architrave, window board etc - is made of very fast grown glued together strips with feathered end joints. It also has sapwood and resin pockets.
Some of the pieces are about 6mm short of what they should be, so the fitter left gaps at the ends. Maybe that's intentional, and it's an eco-friendly place for the spiders to hide in?

 

[Doug71]

Howden joinery oak veneered MDF door linings with oak veneered MDF skirting and architrave to match, hate the stuff.

 

[custard]

Here's some rubbish cabinet making to go with the rubbish joinery.

I spotted these chairs in a client's house, apparently they weren't cheap (and based on the other furniture in their house I doubt they shop at Oak Furniture Land), but look at how they're made. The back leg is built up from shorter Oak staves and then machined to shape.

 

[tony_s]

Repairing and altering similar pieces is, to quite a degree, my daily bread. I think many would be shocked if they could see beneath the surface of some of these "higher end" pieces of furniture. 0.6mm thick veneers would be a luxury for example!

 

[pollys13]

They're very unlikely to read this, so I can add that some friends recently had some softwood windows installed which they were surprisingly pleased with.
The surrounding trim - architrave, window board etc - is made of very fast grown glued together strips with feathered end joints. It also has sapwood and resin pockets.
Some of the pieces are about 6mm short of what they should be, so the fitter left gaps at the ends. Maybe that's intentional, and it's an eco-friendly place for the spiders to hide in?

Maybe that's intentional, and it's an eco-friendly place for the spiders to hide in? I like that one

 

[johnnyb]

Pretty much. Softwood casings can be bad but at least there redwood and chunky. Softwood linings are spruce and real rubbish. Mdf linings are mostly hated but they do give a better paint finish.(to me) joinery trends have to be delivered as cheaply as possible. So if oak linings are needed there usually not solid. A typical oak door costs £65 plus vat! I guess a solid oak internal door would cost more than that just for the wood. People are often shocked there expensive doors are chipboard!

 

[Adam9453]

Funnily enough mdf is allowed for fire rated door frames providing it’s at least 700kg/m3 density and above a minimum section size stipulated. You’d be horrified how many expensive developments have mdf frames, either spray painted or wrapped in veneer.
Wrapping in veneer is popular as you can maintain a consistent veneer finish over the door and frame but typically we’d recommend veneering over tulipwood or Sapele depending on fire rating required. Considering fire doors can easily be 80kg plus, I’d hate to rely on fixings into mdf to support its weight!!

 

[HOJ]

I would also suggest "Carpenters" need to take stock, how do they not expect to get call backs when the doors start falling off! fixing into less than 30mm of MDF is asking for trouble from the start.

I have also seen on quite a few occasions that they have fixed the linings vertically in line behind the stops, so as not to spoil the look.

 

[mr edd]

Most shop bought joinery i.e howdens etc is a world away from the from the doors and lining's etc produced by a good small custom joinery shop.

A fact that can lost be on some 'potential customers' who expect to get things like 4 panelled solid doors for around the same price or cheaper as moulded hollow core/egg box style from Wikes/howdens etc

I hesitate to call most of what Howden's produce joinery, 'its joined Jim but not as we know it'

I fact i had a customer recently who wanted her modern doors replaced with something more in keeping in her newly purchased Victorian house.
The brief was for solid pine 4 panel doors (without going down the custom route which is my preferred) which you used to be able to buy from Jeldwen/ magnet etc.
I was told by the rep that they no longer produced a mortise and tenoned solid pine door, they are nearly all veneered chipboard cored.
I think there has been a decrease in the quality of joinery redwood in the last 15 years, so i prefer to use dougie fir for joinery instead, it is one of the few woods you can specify vertical grain for the door stiles as well. However recently i can get Sapele marginally cheaper than Douglas Fir so..........

 

[Doug71]

A builder brought me 6 redwood door casings to saw through to width last week, they needed about 10 mm off. He had got them from some builders merchant and were still in the plastic wrapping. When I opened them I could not believe how bad they were, almost every piece was bent, bowed, twisted cupped or cracked. I got him to come back and look at them before I cut them and he said they were fine, it was normal and he buys them there because they are better than other places.

Either his joiner is very skilled or very rough because I couldn't/wouldn't have fitted them.

 

[ColeyS1]

This arrived in the post this morning

Could never compete with those prices.....short term anyway.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[Woody2Shoes]

I make my own door linings out of redwood I've selected myself. I helped a friend install external doors in his house, made of "engineered" oak-veneered blockboard-type-stuff - I managed to stay silent on the quality of them the whole time - I've no idea how long they'll last.

 

[Just4Fun]

This arrived in the post this morning

Could never compete with those prices.....short term anyway.

Those prices seem to have been drawn from a hat. Even ignoring the low price level and just comparing one with another, to me there seems to be little obvious correlation between the time & materials required to make each door and the price being charged.

Taking any of those Howden doors as an example, what would it cost to have a decent door and frame made "properly"?

 

[johnnyb]

Twisted and warped door frames are straightened up mostly when fixed by packing. No one pays for custom made doors or frames unless there's no option. Ie odd sizes. This is mass market stuff.most People are really not aware what a well fitted door is. As far as call backs go stability is the thing chipboard and veneer wins Everytime.
Of course someone will want a custom door but they are few and far between and what if they want 10 more to match.
I went to look at a job in an old terraced house the people that made the doors had specified 1inch thick doors! I'm guessing every house on that street was the same. Moneysaving old school style!

 

[Craigclose1991]

Only thing I like mdf for is its resistance to heat ie making a radiator cover out of it.

 

[johnnyb]

This weather has played havoc the the equilibrium moisture content of all par pine/ spruce. Most of it is as twisted as a corkscrew.

 

[Benchwayze]

Here's some rubbish cabinet making to go with the rubbish joinery.

I spotted these chairs in a client's house, apparently they weren't cheap (and based on the other furniture in their house I doubt they shop at Oak Furniture Land), but look at how they're made. The back leg is built up from shorter Oak staves and then machined to shape.

Custard.

I'm confused here. Did you mean "you doubted they shop at Oakfurnitureland; or you "didn't doubt". I ask because most of my new furniture was bought from Oakfurnitureland, and it's all made from recycled off-cuts, jointed into usable boards. The made up boards are quite well-matched and the stuff is reasonably well made; (For the money). I spent a long time deciding on what I wanted, and of the ranges, I found the 'Original Rustic range was the best.) But it is all made from re-jointed laths and other off-cuts which would have been wasted if this style of furniture making had not been used.

Yes I could make a better job of most of it, but at 79 years, my eyesight and strength aren't what they were, and I would have been tempted to just buy laminated pine boards for lightness, and used a domino to rely on machinery for accuracy. So I saved myself the trouble and bought ready made. By traditional standards the furniture is only just above the average but, by today's standards, for the mass market, quite good. I am happy with my new stuff, (Now I live alone) and I can work in my shop making smaller pieces for my own enjoyment!

The Oakfurnitureland stuff is all machine jointed but at least it is jointed.

Cons: the drawers are small, and don't fit very well. A lot of space is wasted inside because they don't use traditional drawer guides and runners. But as long as you remember to open drawers two handed, they don't wobble too much!

The Rustic range is solidly built, pineappling heavy, and a real pig to get upstairs!
It looks okay, and I am happy. The only problem was they delivered it much quicker than I asked; before the guy who was to decorate my bedroom turned up; and still hasn't! :?

Regards John

 

[johnnyb]

In a house my brother rents out the tenant had a bedroom suite from ofl. The wardrobe was an enormous box. I had to take every door off and the bannister and it was still tight. They left it in the yard!. One console table was leaning 10degrees left. Anyway chap comes out and says nothing wrong with it. I hand him his coffee and gesture for him to place it on the table( on a brand new pale carpet) ok says he well replace!