Roubo benches and Record holdfasts

[Eric The Viking]

This is a follow-on from the interesting thread about bench design, but it's far enough away from the topic, I think, to be worth it's own thread.

My brain lies to me these days, for biochemical reasons I won't bore you with. In short, unlike Mark Twain below, unfortunately I can remember anything nowadays, whether it happened or not. Previously I could tell the difference!

I'm morally certain (see above!) that when Record made holdfasts there were two sizes. I have three presently, and a few collars, and all of them are the larger, 1" size. I remember from woodwork at school (see above!) that the smaller size was easier to use, and I've a sneaky feeling it was a 3/4" hole and that the Veritas one is an adaptation of it.

I can't see a big difference in function between the Record sort, with collars in the benchtop, and the blacksmiths/Veritas type that just use a 3/4" hole and friction to stay put (I know the blacksmiths' sort are precisely springy, too). I'm wondering if, when I replace the top of my bench, I might just bore holes rather than fit collars (I don't have enough collars!).

What do the team think? I can see 1" holes will be a nuisance in that things will inevitably drop through, and they're big enough to weaken the bench a bit, but if they work well....

Did the old ones fit 3/4" dog holes? If so, can you still get them without paying Veritas prices? An inquiring but rather fugged-up mind wants to know!

E.

 

[carlb40]

There is a rather interesting thread on here about Richard T and his group buy on the holdfasts he makes. At the time of producing them various members reported back on their findings and despite the hold fast being designed for use with 50/60mm tops. They still worked with 4 inch tops

While the group buy has ended, the holdfasts are still available in pairs. Can't find the thread at the moment.

The holdfasts are here
http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/sho ... cts_id=266

EDIT

Found the thread.

holdfast-group-buy-may-have-found-a-uk-blacksmith-t42256.html

 

[Muswell]

I'm morally certain (see above!) that when Record made holdfasts there were two sizes. I have three presently, and a few collars, and all of them are the larger, 1" size. I remember from woodwork at school (see above!) that the smaller size was easier to use, and I've a sneaky feeling it was a 3/4" hole and that the Veritas one is an adaptation of it.

I have a Marples which has a 20mm shaft. Does that reassure you?

John

 

[GazPal]

I'd check my old Record catalogue to see if relevant dimensions are presented, but it's buried among my other books in packing boxes in the loft and it'd take a day to find. Are the shanks on your Record hold-fasts smooth or toothed? The ones I use have 23mm dia toothed shanks.

Perhaps the surest and simplest way of assessing such practicalities would be to produce a test piece with holes bored. I think they'd work without collars, as clamping pressure causes the shank to lean away from the workpiece.

You could also possibly order a sample replacement or phone to see if the following spares might fit:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-sp ... rod819079/

http://www.tilgear.info/workholding/cla ... -holdfast-

I know the Boston holdfasts were direct copies of Record's originals and Axminster's version appears virtually identical.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I've a Record and a Woden, neither fit 19mm holes. When I sort out the cost of carriage, I'll post them for sale.


I've just measured - they are both 19.7 - 19.8mm.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Thanks both.

Yes, I've got two Record originals and one Boston. All have shafts for (I think) 1" collars.

The Boston looks to be a cast copy of a Record. It had too much powder-coated paint on it initially and wouldn't fit in the collars! The Boston and Record collars look identical, both with the same, too-small, squared reinforcing plate underneath (three bolt holes, thin square plate with a big round hole in it). The bolts, incidentally, would only do about 2 1/2" benchtop thickness.

I was going to fix a collar to a front leg of the bench lower down, and I think it would work 'inside out' pretty well. One reason I haven't progressed this, nor fitting another, better placed collar on the top, is that I can't fit them in/on tightly enough with the supplied bolts and "reinforcing" plate - the present two tip slightly in use. They've never broken loose (if they did they'd really mess up the benchtop), but they always leave me feeling slightly insecure about them.

The holdfasts that Carl found ("English Woodworker") look good value and practical. 3/4" holes ought to be a far better approach. I'm wondering if I should just ditch/sell the ones I have (or keep them for a sliding deadman), and go with forged one-piece ones. They're simple, very practical, reliable (percussion maintenance!), and relatively inexpensive.

I like Veritas kit, but how can they justify a retail price of £80 for theirs??? That's breathtaking, no matter how good it is: two castings, one thread and hand-screw, one rollpin and some paint!

Gulp.

E.

 

[GazPal]

I was fortunate to invest in a set of smith-made holdfasts and find Richard's are excellent in form, function and fast in use. In comparison with Record holdfast I'd score them equally in terms of materials and built quality, but (For me) Record's win due to an increase in reach of 2", increased clamping capacity (Shank length allows for clamping timbers up to 3" thicker), the use of protective collars (Protect the bench top) and the fact you don't need to set or release them with mallet/hammer, as a swift turn of the screw tightens or releases the clamp.

Both are great pieces of kit.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I have a pair of Richard's - one reason for getting them was that I put about 18 holes in the bench top, and didn't wish to buy collars for all of them, although I wouldn't have thought the screw type would damage the top. Mind, my top is two extremely hard pieces of African mahogany that a fisherman friend (RIP drowned) fished out of the sea. Maybe, had I thought, I would have tried the forged ones in 20mm holes - It probably would have been OK. - then done the whole lot 20mm.

 

[xy mosian]

Eric, I have just dusted a copy of Sargents Tools catalogue, there is no reference to year but probably late 70's. There are two Record holdfasts listed, Record 145 with a maximum opening of 6 7/8" and Record 146 with a maximum opening of 7 5/8". Those are the only dimensions given, there are however different references for the spare collars, suggesting different diameter shafts. The shafts shown are heavily ridged and I can see the need for a collar to protect the bench top. Given that it is really only the top of the bench which will be damaged, in use, could you use a thick washer?
xy

 

[Vann]

are two Record holdfasts listed, Record 145 with a maximum opening of 6 7/8" and Record 146 with a maximum opening of 7 5/8".

When buying hardware for my workbench (back in the 1970s), I decided to get the smaller #145 (2 off). An unfortunate decision, as now that I want a few more I can only get #146 clones

I think the shafts are only 1/8" less than the #146 (therefore ~7/8"). I'll measure one in the morning for you.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Thanks Vann and XY - handy info. It's over 45 years since I last used the smaller variety (bits of brain still work!).

Regarding washers, I'm not wholly convinced it's necessary. As correctly used They will apply hugely more force than the forged sort, because of the meshing aspect of the collar, BUT I've a guess that without a collar they'll be still pretty good. I'll experiment with a bit of 3x2 deal later if I get a sec (supposed to be on a DIY job this evening though!). The Veritas ones are ridged, although much more finely.

With a 3" thickness of bench, how much mess could they make of the edge of the hole, especially if it's bevelled tidily?

OK, I'll try to answer my own question later on...

 

[GazPal]

With a 3" thickness of bench, how much mess could they make of the edge of the hole, especially if it's bevelled tidily?

OK, I'll try to answer my own question later on...

I think the life saver will be if you bevel the rim. You could even consider inletting a washer to protect the rim, but I think it'd probably work it's way out under pressure unless screwed/pinned into place.

 

[Eric The Viking]

So far I haven't damaged an edge tool on the two collars I have. They're about 1/8" below the surface, but the csk bolts don't sit nicely, and come closer. I'd far prefer a 'steel-free' benchtop if I can manage it. I had drop-in covers of thin ply for a while, but they got lost in a house move and I haven't replaced them. Every now and then, a vital screw disappears down a collar (usually a crucial motorbike carb screw or something equally dreadful). If I redo the bench top, I may try to arrange a tray underneath - it only needs to be close to the line of dog holes really.

OK I confess: it gets used for other things than just woodwork!

E.

 

[Vann]

I've measured the shafts on the two Record #145 holdfasts I have. Bearing in mind that they're castings (or maybe forgings) they're not perfectly round. They measure just over ¾" - being ~19mm at the top of the shaft (near the arm) and ~19.8 at the bottom.

They don't fit down the ¾" dog holes that exist alongside the holdfast collars on my bench.

So far I haven't damaged an edge tool on the two collars I have. They're about 1/8" below the surface, but the csk bolts don't sit nicely, and come closer. I'd far prefer a 'steel-free' benchtop if I can manage it.

Agreed. From that point of view the Veritas or Richard-The-blacksmith variety would be better - even though they will probably damage the dog holes over time. And they're both designed to fit ¾" dog holes.

The Record collars were a pain to fit and you only got two with each holdfast (I believe Tilgear's Boston comes with just one). I could do with a couple more (Record part: C145 - according to the leaflet) but no chance that Record (Rubbermaid :evil: ) will still hold parts .

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Thanks Vann,

I think it was originally one collar per set, but I bought a spare with my first two, intending it to go on the leg (never fitted). I now have four collars altogether (bought a Boston from Olly PJ a while back that he'd never fitted).

It's a rotten shame that they're just too big for the 3/4" dog holes, too. It needs to be 19.05mm (officially) minus the right clearance to tilt slightly to grip. My guess is that a snug fit with these would work, but then you'd have to be able to thump-release them too, in case they locked with the thread almost wound out (arm flat).

I doubt we'll see any third party collars available, as it's an awkward casting to make - the ridges inside mean it's tricky to set up, unless you machine them afterwards, in which case it gets too expensive. I guess they tried a design with a shallow, coarse-pitch thread originally, but it probably would have racked in use (if the holdfast was lose enough to slide in). Otherwise, that might be an easier way to do a modern version. The collars have rings all the way down (well, the Record ones do). Just one ring at the top would again be easier to cast.

So a new benchtop (at least) is looming on the horizon for me. The questions are, if I should keep the bigger holdfasts, and if so where to put the collars?

That's a whole new thread, I guess!

E.

 

[GazPal]

So a new benchtop (at least) is looming on the horizon for me. The questions are, if I should keep the bigger holdfasts, and if so where to put the collars?

That's a whole new thread, I guess!

E.

It's surprising how often projects evolve, but - as always - it's always best to remain somewhat flexible as you progress as this increases the chance of success. I think the primary factors re holdfast locations are the work you tend to be involved in and providing scope for clamping the majority of workpieces in a number orientations. Even holdfast spacing - planning 2" overlap on arm reach - throughout the bench length tends to work well for me. It minimises drilling, but enables you to cover as much bench top yardage as possible.

Definitely a new thread topic

 

[Vann]

I doubt we'll see any third party collars available....

Without searching, don't Tilgear do spare collars (for the #146 clone)?

So a new benchtop (at least) is looming on the horizon for me. The questions are, if I should keep the bigger holdfasts, and if so where to put the collars?

Not withstand what Gazpal suggests (2" overlap), here's what Record recommended:
Minimum distance from bench edge and from bench end:
#145 6 3/8" (162mm);
#146 7 9/16" (191mm).

Of course, you'll probably run out of collars halfway along your workbench... #-o

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Yes and yes.

Tilgear do spare collars for theirs (#146 copy). I was considering the thinner smaller ones (#145 copies), as they're close to 3/4".

It might be worth skimming down the smaller size, to fit a 3/4" hole (if you can find them!), but honestly, Richard T's ones look like a better bet for the working edge of the bench. I'm still pondering.

E.

 

[AndyNC]

Has any one tried a Tilgear or Axminster bench clamp in a Record/Marples M146 collar and vice a verse.
I ask because I have two 146 collars (I bought an extra collar when I bought the clamp about a million years ago (probably about 30 actually)) and I want another clamp. I would prefer all parts to be interchangeable so if anyone has an answer before I take the plunge I would be obliged.

There's always ebay for the 146 which should guarantee a fit but there hasn't been to many recently and they seem to be a tad more expensive than Tilgear.

Cheers

Andy

 

[Eric The Viking]

If you mean the Tilgear "Boston" holdfast, then yes, they're pretty much identical and do fit in the 146 collars.

One caveat though: my Boston one was thickly powder painted, and didn't fit until I'd taken Emery cloth to the shaft. I have a Boston collar, not fitted. It might be loose for the originals, if it takes the extra paint into account.

Sorry for the rubbish pic: on the left, original Record, on the right, Boston. Both are labelled "146", so are the holdfasts themselves. Both fit each other's bits. The newer made one is chamfered, the original isn't.

Hope that helps, E.