Quantcast
  • We invite you to join UKWorkshop.
    Members can turn off viewing Ads!

Ripping by hand - scribing with the router

UKworkshop.co.uk

Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:

Philipp

Established Member
Joined
3 Nov 2005
Messages
81
Reaction score
0
Location
Via strata montana
Hi folks,

For those who might be interested I'd like to share the results of my latest tests to use the router as a "scribing tool" for ripping.

Pictures tell more than words, so here they are:

My primitive router table with a 1,6 mm slot cutter (http://www.fine-tools.com/scheibennutfraeser.html) mounted in my small router. The board of course was planed flat in order to have a reference surface:



The slot:



Using the slot as a guide for the saw:



Results:





Unfortunately, the board bent due to stress release after ripping questioning all the fuzz about precision et al.:



Works very fine for me and is worth the effort, particularly when I have to be economic with my wood and cannot allow the saw to wander.

Regards, Philipp
 

Jacob

Established Member
Joined
7 Jul 2010
Messages
16,119
Reaction score
3
Location
Derbyshire
I do a similar thing but with a TS for the slot (max 80mm) and band-saw instead of rip saw, which means I can rip up to 12".
I wouldn't plane first though. You will only have to plane again, having already removed some thickness. The sawn board face is good enough for your reference surface as long as the cut is going nicely down the middle.
And I would absolutely always cut to length first (i.e. taking measurements from the project cutting list) as this is much more practical for a number of reasons - the main one being that you are more likely to be able to get your desired thickness from shorter lengths.
 

bugbear

Established Member
Joined
16 Jul 2004
Messages
13,074
Reaction score
0
Location
North Suffolk
Jacob":cc29842s said:
And I would absolutely always cut to length first (i.e. taking measurements from the project cutting list) as this is much more practical for a number of reasons - the main one being that you are more likely to be able to get your desired thickness from shorter lengths.
Yeah, it's a very good general rule. The obvious exceptions is when the final work pieces are very short; in this case subsequent work holding becomes tricky, and some processes can also become tricky.

The commonest instance is probably moulding, either with a moulding plane or a scratch stock; both of these processes have a strong tendancy to go wrong in the last (or first) inch of the workpiece, so making a long moulded "blank" and cutting the desired pieces from it afterwards is an effective practice.

Never say never...

BugBear
 

ac445ab

Established Member
Joined
7 Jul 2007
Messages
302
Reaction score
0
Location
Naples-Italy
Ciao Philipp,
Yours is a good idea!
Can I know something more (sizes and teeth) about the frame saw? Where did you take the blade and how much you are fast with it?
I am thinking about the possibility of using a plough plane for the scribing job. I have got a Record 043 as well as a 044 which narrower blades are 1/8" (too much :?: ). How deep is the groove you obtain with your slot cutter?
Thanks
Giuliano :D
 

Philipp

Established Member
Joined
3 Nov 2005
Messages
81
Reaction score
0
Location
Via strata montana
Ciao Giuliano,

The fram saw is self-built and has a commercial 700-mm-blade like this:

http://www.feinewerkzeuge.de/gestell.htm (see item 301154). Cheap, but with too much set and needs some filing for better performance.

Before trying the router as "scribing tool" I, too, considered a plough plane like the Record 043 for this job (after having tried a scratch stock with a special cutter as well). But I wanted a as narrow as possible groove. This would have made it necessary to reduce the width of the skate and to grind the smallest cutter down as well, something I was too lazy for.
My slot cutter is 1.6 mm in thickness and could perhaps be ground down slightly more for a really slim slot.

When you search this forum for "ripping plane" you'll find a self-built plane with thin skate and thin cutter which would suit this task very well.

The maximum depth of the groove is given by the radius of the slot cutter (in my case 24 mm) and the radius of the smallest bearing fitting this slot cutter (in my case 9.5 mm), equalling roundabout 14 mm. However, I chose a slightly bigger bearing since I wanted to spare my weak router :? .

Hope that this answer was of some help for you.

Servus, Philipp

ac445ab":3t5fk8fu said:
Ciao Philipp,
Yours is a good idea!
Can I know something more (sizes and teeth) about the frame saw? Where did you take the blade and how much you are fast with it?
I am thinking about the possibility of using a plough plane for the scribing job. I have got a Record 043 as well as a 044 which narrower blades are 1/8" (too much :?: ). How deep is the groove you obtain with your slot cutter?
Thanks
Giuliano :D
 

bugbear

Established Member
Joined
16 Jul 2004
Messages
13,074
Reaction score
0
Location
North Suffolk
ac445ab":2q0a0yuv said:
Ciao Philipp,
Yours is a good idea!
Can I know something more (sizes and teeth) about the frame saw? Where did you take the blade and how much you are fast with it?
I am thinking about the possibility of using a plough plane for the scribing job. I have got a Record 043 as well as a 044 which narrower blades are 1/8" (too much :?: ). How deep is the groove you obtain with your slot cutter?
Thanks
Giuliano :D
I have seen the plough plane recommended for separating boxes, when making the box in one piece instead of base + lid.

BugBear
 

ac445ab

Established Member
Joined
7 Jul 2007
Messages
302
Reaction score
0
Location
Naples-Italy
Philipp":1nbvgzsw said:
Ciao Giuliano,

The fram saw is self-built and has a commercial 700-mm-blade like this:

http://www.feinewerkzeuge.de/gestell.htm (see item 301154). Cheap, but with too much set and needs some filing for better performance.
Hi Philipp,
I bought the rip blade and I tried it. It cuts straight but, as you said, it needs some filing....
The tooth geometry seems to me more oriented toward crosscut set (15° rake angle) and I was thinking to change tooth geometry for a more aggressive cut, with a rake angle between 0 and 8 degrees. Unfortunately I have not much sawing experience, so any advice will be welcome.

Ciao
Giuliano
 

Philipp

Established Member
Joined
3 Nov 2005
Messages
81
Reaction score
0
Location
Via strata montana
ac445ab":4q57vt54 said:
Hi Philipp,
I bought the rip blade and I tried it. It cuts straight but, as you said, it needs some filing....
The tooth geometry seems to me more oriented toward crosscut set (15° rake angle) and I was thinking to change tooth geometry for a more aggressive cut, with a rake angle between 0 and 8 degrees. Unfortunately I have not much sawing experience, so any advice will be welcome.

Ciao
Giuliano
Ciao Guilano,

saw filing is not rocket science, basically rather simple, as long as you put all the esoterism aside that often accompanies sharpening in general.

The best treatise on saw filing I know is this one:

http://www.woodworking.de/schaerfprojek ... rfen1.html

However, it is in German, so either you are capable of reading this language or you use a translation programm. Anyway, pictures tell more than words, so the illustrations alone should help, too.

Best regards, Philipp
 

ac445ab

Established Member
Joined
7 Jul 2007
Messages
302
Reaction score
0
Location
Naples-Italy
Philipp":1hhakzac said:
ac445ab":1hhakzac said:
Hi Philipp,
I bought the rip blade and I tried it. It cuts straight but, as you said, it needs some filing....
The tooth geometry seems to me more oriented toward crosscut set (15° rake angle) and I was thinking to change tooth geometry for a more aggressive cut, with a rake angle between 0 and 8 degrees. Unfortunately I have not much sawing experience, so any advice will be welcome.

Ciao
Giuliano
Ciao Guilano,

saw filing is not rocket science, basically rather simple, as long as you put all the esoterism aside that often accompanies sharpening in general.

The best treatise on saw filing I know is this one:

http://www.woodworking.de/schaerfprojek ... rfen1.html

However, it is in German, so either you are capable of reading this language or you use a translation programm. Anyway, pictures tell more than words, so the illustrations alone should help, too.

Best regards, Philipp
Ciao Philipp, thanks for the link of which I'll look to pictures..... :mrgreen:
However, I have the same blade you have, so I would like to know how you managed that blade for obtain good results. Did you change tooth geometry?

Giuliano
 

Richard T

Established Member
Joined
24 Apr 2009
Messages
1,743
Reaction score
0
Location
Wet Midlands
Hi Giuliano,

If you change the rake to (say) 0 degrees the front edge of the file will take off some of the back of the tooth in front leaving it at 60 degrees. This is what you want, regularly, every time but it can get confusing to keep track with keeping the teeth at regular heights.
So, as a guide, I start by running a long, flat, smooth file along the length of all the points making tiny flats on all of them. So when I come to re-cut the teeth I can see exactly where to file sharp to - when I can just no longer see the flat spot.

You may very well know this trick already but just in case. :)
 

ac445ab

Established Member
Joined
7 Jul 2007
Messages
302
Reaction score
0
Location
Naples-Italy
Richard T":4xvvrfzx said:
Hi Giuliano,


You may very well know this trick already but just in case. :)
Thank you Richard, :D
any trick and advice is useful. I use mostly Japanese hand saws with interchangeable blades, so have not many opportunities of filing them. :roll:
 

Philipp

Established Member
Joined
3 Nov 2005
Messages
81
Reaction score
0
Location
Via strata montana
ac445ab":1tqhuvzr said:
Ciao Philipp, thanks for the link of which I'll look to pictures..... :mrgreen:
However, I have the same blade you have, so I would like to know how you managed that blade for obtain good results. Did you change tooth geometry?

Giuliano
Hi Giulano,

I checked my frame saw blade yesterday: it has a 8° rake. I would not recommend a rake too close to zero since this makes an aggressive cut that requires planty of force. Hence, the saw might come off-track quicker. For precise ripping cuts in hard wood I would choose a rake angle of 5-12°, less for softwood.

Ciao, Philipp
 

ac445ab

Established Member
Joined
7 Jul 2007
Messages
302
Reaction score
0
Location
Naples-Italy
Philipp":1l4yygj1 said:
ac445ab":1l4yygj1 said:
Ciao Philipp, thanks for the link of which I'll look to pictures..... :mrgreen:
However, I have the same blade you have, so I would like to know how you managed that blade for obtain good results. Did you change tooth geometry?

Giuliano
Hi Giulano,

I checked my frame saw blade yesterday: it has a 8° rake. I would not recommend a rake too close to zero since this makes an aggressive cut that requires planty of force. Hence, the saw might come off-track quicker. For precise ripping cuts in hard wood I would choose a rake angle of 5-12°, less for softwood.

Ciao, Philipp
Thank you. I'm sure these info will be very useful.
Ciao
Giuliano :D
 

dedee

Established Member
Joined
24 Jul 2003
Messages
2,637
Reaction score
1
Location
14860, France
Philip, it is good to see someone else using a centre blade frame saw for ripping. When I made one earlier in the year I struggled to answer the question "what is the benefit of a frame saw for ripping over a conventional hand saw?"

What do you see as the advantages?

cheers

Andy
 

Philipp

Established Member
Joined
3 Nov 2005
Messages
81
Reaction score
0
Location
Via strata montana
What do you see as the advantages?
Are there any :wink: ? I have to admit that I have not done enough ripping (less than 100 m :evil: ) in order to be in a position to judge without any doubt and scientifically fully supported which saw is the best for ripping.

For me the main benefit of a frame saw is its size that I can determine as it suits me. Frame saw blades - and frame saws themselves - are rather easily made. It is much more challenging to built a large hand saw. Hence, I can experiment quite a lot with different blades in one saw.
Furthermre you can bulit a frame saw heavier than a hand saw, helping with the cut. Also, it can be operated by two sawyers (like the bigger brethren always were) for a more precise and faster cut.

The one in my photos is the second one I built, and interestingly it is much louder than the firste one, which was a bit shorter but wider and also much louder in operation than my "normal" handsaws - a clear disadvantage :( .

Which (dis)advantages do you see?

Best regards, Philipp


dedee":5kgz9oyj said:
Philip, it is good to see someone else using a centre blade frame saw for ripping. When I made one earlier in the year I struggled to answer the question "what is the benefit of a frame saw for ripping over a conventional hand saw?"

What do you see as the advantages?

cheers

Andy
 

dedee

Established Member
Joined
24 Jul 2003
Messages
2,637
Reaction score
1
Location
14860, France
Philipp, I've used it a lot less than you (only two cuts to date) . I used mine on the pull stroke which I believe makes it easier to keep the cut straight. As one uses two hands you have to be central to the board being cut which I also thinks help to keep the cut straight and as one uses both hands one arm does not get tired quite so quickly :D

cheers

Andy
 
Top