I don't really go in for guru-bashing as, by and large, I think they are doing an invaluable job helping out us nonplussed learners. I did chuckle at "selling lifestyle gibberish" though. Incidentally, my favourite guru is the one who only travels around by rolling (the Rolling Saint - look him up!).
Regular Mortice Chisel or Bevel Edged for your Mortices
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Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
Watched it.D_W":1g8eiw8e said:
Very effective.
Not turning the chisel was just a detail as they were small and at the opposite end he has turn anyway. Also he doesn't really need to lever out chippings and he chops through them at one point. You can lever them out of course but were taught not to. Most of them fly out anyway or drop out when you've finished and tap the end against the bench. We also were taught to have tenon sized hardwood drift available, to knock through just to make sure it fits and to take out any remaining chips.
You'd have to lever them out of a blind mortice of course - but only when it's all been cut.
Blind mortice is where the curved bevel comes into its own - for leverage when cleaning out the corners.
Sitting sideways on looks OK but I think sitting astride would be more convenient. And I'd prefer a BFO mallet - less likely to miss or damage the chisel, or to harm yourself
Tasky
Established Member
Well, since I've no intention to become a lighting-fast professional woodworker churning out fifty tables a week, I'm happy to just find something that works for me, really. I'm also capable of glossing over any tree-hugging lifestyle aspects that such learning may or may not come with, so not really a problem!
I still don't agree with sitting side-on like that, though.
I'm sure years and years of it would harden you to the damage, but it's still bad for you whichever way you look at it!
I still don't agree with sitting side-on like that, though.
I'm sure years and years of it would harden you to the damage, but it's still bad for you whichever way you look at it!
Tasky":34za139l said:
If you do anything in woodworking for years, you're going to wear some part of you out. I'm sure you could get up and stretch once in a while, and it wouldn't amount to anything. The literal pain in the a- of sharp cornered sticking would seem to be a bigger issue to me, but your brain will turn that pain off if you do it a few times.
FTR, I'm sure I'll never be a lightning fast professional, either, but doing things well is usually less effort. If not in the actual step, in the stages following for a multitude of reasons.
There are probably better hobbies for ODD, given how good woodworking is at punishing the defiant.
MikeG.
Established Member
Jacob":2282gjkw said:
Other than "it was the nearest thing to hand", I can't think of a single good reason to hit a chisel with an axe.
custard
Established Member
Puzzling why mortices get all the love.
Cutting an accurate mortice by hand really isn't that difficult, cutting an accurate tenon is quite a bit harder. Even tenoning by machine often takes a fair few trial set-ups before you get it right.
A mortice is pretty much self jigging, the chisel width dictates the key dimension and your layout lines remain visible throughout. However, there's nothing self jigging about a tenon, and because the layout lines get removed it's often tricky to know how to correct any inaccuracies.
So why whenever M&T joints crop up is it generally the mortices that are the centre of attention?
Cutting an accurate mortice by hand really isn't that difficult, cutting an accurate tenon is quite a bit harder. Even tenoning by machine often takes a fair few trial set-ups before you get it right.
A mortice is pretty much self jigging, the chisel width dictates the key dimension and your layout lines remain visible throughout. However, there's nothing self jigging about a tenon, and because the layout lines get removed it's often tricky to know how to correct any inaccuracies.
So why whenever M&T joints crop up is it generally the mortices that are the centre of attention?
custard
Established Member
Let's say the objective is to make an "H" shaped structure out of scrap 2" x 1" timber. The horizontal bar of the "H" has a tenon at each end, and there are corresponding mortices in the two uprights. The challenge is threefold,
1. The joints should be snug and close fitting
2. All the components should be flush, so if you run your finger across the joints you won't feel a lip or a ledge.
3. If you lay the finished "H" shape down on a flat surface it shouldn't rock, in other words the two uprights should be co-planar with no wind or twist.
At a guess relatively few people on this forum could consistently hit all three objectives. But I'd further guess that the majority of people on this forum could execute the mortice part adequately well, or at least give them a few tries at it and they would. And that would likely be true if they used a mortice chisel or a bevel edged chisel. In other words it's almost certainly the tenons that would be letting them down.
There's plenty to discuss about ways of improving that tenon performance. From simple hand sawing jigs to different ways of utilising an inexpensive bandsaw.
But those discussions rarely see the light of day, where as a debate about, "is a metal hammer or a carver's mallet the best tool for morticing?", would roll on across multiple pages.
Weird.
1. The joints should be snug and close fitting
2. All the components should be flush, so if you run your finger across the joints you won't feel a lip or a ledge.
3. If you lay the finished "H" shape down on a flat surface it shouldn't rock, in other words the two uprights should be co-planar with no wind or twist.
At a guess relatively few people on this forum could consistently hit all three objectives. But I'd further guess that the majority of people on this forum could execute the mortice part adequately well, or at least give them a few tries at it and they would. And that would likely be true if they used a mortice chisel or a bevel edged chisel. In other words it's almost certainly the tenons that would be letting them down.
There's plenty to discuss about ways of improving that tenon performance. From simple hand sawing jigs to different ways of utilising an inexpensive bandsaw.
But those discussions rarely see the light of day, where as a debate about, "is a metal hammer or a carver's mallet the best tool for morticing?", would roll on across multiple pages.
Weird.
... glad to see my favourite rolling Guru, Lotan Baba is not being ignoredcustard":10ks33h2 said:
. I wonder if some of the interest in morticing is because there is something about all the banging and wiggling needed that is inherently dissatisfying and people are just keen to hear about techniques that will mean they get it over with quicker, even if their skills don't improve much as a result..
All true. Remember when you planed the surface of a bubinga tabletop with a double iron and (of course, that's my gimmick - not really my gimmick, but I'm borrowing it from the folks smart enough to invent it) the discussion that followed generally was "oh, neat, but...., I'd use":
* a router
* single iron planes
* sanders
* wide belt sander
It all seemed a bit hypothetical, didn't it? Charlie hit you up with his normal thing, but because it was double iron and he likes to shoot at me with it: "there's a whole bunch of other ways to do that".
And your response was "yes, this one is just better" (paraphrased).
It was clear from those discussions that there just weren't many people doing what you're doing. I just finished another plane last night (from time to time, if someone offers me money above the cost of the plane I'm using at a given time, I'll sell it and donate the difference and build another). I was reminded, taking deep saw marks off of a board that must've been cut with an inaccurate circular sawmill for decorative purposes) just how well the double iron works, and how nice it would be to actually have a discussion about dimensioning.
But, it's clear that few do it. And I'm sure few actually get mid project and have a setup like you're talking about (the H) and do it with hand-done mortise and tenons, because these arguments just don't come down to actually doing it well and the nuances, or the reality of the fact that guys like me (maybe not you) are going to cut and fit something like you're discussing, and then need to make minor repairs to get something both physically and aesthetically acceptable.
I just finished my kitchen cabinets - literally 4 1/2 years of procrastination (and now the wife added a couple more of them after I sold my router table and other door making bits and pieces) - I hand cut and hand dimensioned almost all of the lumber and sticking (I did turn the machines on from time to time if I was getting the sharts of it), but aside from trying to be a one-man glue-up operation on cabinets made with dado construction on the carcase, the hardest thing to do was hand M&T all of the face frames and end up with excellent aesthetics. It just provided an ideal situation to practice M&T, but perfection is difficult - especially if you're dimensioning the wood by hand.
If I were to have posted that (and ruined the idea that I don't do any woodwork - that'd have been a shame), how much discussion would it have garnered? I made a panel-raising plane during the process, and now that the mrs. has requested some more cabinets where we don't currently have them, I guess I'll make a couple of moulding planes (including on askew) to cut the decorative door parts that freud boringly made on the router bit set that I had (I still resent now that I didn't do the doors entirely by hand).
Who else is going to have these conversations, though?
Personally, I share the double iron gimmickry and such on here because nobody around here (locally, geographically) is capable of talking about it. My local friend brought me a table top to smooth for him yesterday (he wanted it to be planed instead of sanded, and he knew I could plane it mark free). His comment to me "the double iron thing doesn't work for me", but each time he sees it, I know he'd like to figure it out. I can't get him to take up the whole idea of "just do it until you get the feel for it". I sense some of that in these threads. Who cares if there are mistakes? I'm sure i"ll find more in my kitchen cabinets when I go to hang them, but if there are some, I will fix them and fit them.
I have one more face frame to make now on a very large side cabinet - maybe I will record and post some of the M&T. There is nearly nobody in the world who can teach me much about planes at this point (sorry, it's the truth), but I sure could stand to learn a lot about what I could do more efficiently cutting tenons.
* a router
* single iron planes
* sanders
* wide belt sander
It all seemed a bit hypothetical, didn't it? Charlie hit you up with his normal thing, but because it was double iron and he likes to shoot at me with it: "there's a whole bunch of other ways to do that".
And your response was "yes, this one is just better" (paraphrased).
It was clear from those discussions that there just weren't many people doing what you're doing. I just finished another plane last night (from time to time, if someone offers me money above the cost of the plane I'm using at a given time, I'll sell it and donate the difference and build another). I was reminded, taking deep saw marks off of a board that must've been cut with an inaccurate circular sawmill for decorative purposes) just how well the double iron works, and how nice it would be to actually have a discussion about dimensioning.
But, it's clear that few do it. And I'm sure few actually get mid project and have a setup like you're talking about (the H) and do it with hand-done mortise and tenons, because these arguments just don't come down to actually doing it well and the nuances, or the reality of the fact that guys like me (maybe not you) are going to cut and fit something like you're discussing, and then need to make minor repairs to get something both physically and aesthetically acceptable.
I just finished my kitchen cabinets - literally 4 1/2 years of procrastination (and now the wife added a couple more of them after I sold my router table and other door making bits and pieces) - I hand cut and hand dimensioned almost all of the lumber and sticking (I did turn the machines on from time to time if I was getting the sharts of it), but aside from trying to be a one-man glue-up operation on cabinets made with dado construction on the carcase, the hardest thing to do was hand M&T all of the face frames and end up with excellent aesthetics. It just provided an ideal situation to practice M&T, but perfection is difficult - especially if you're dimensioning the wood by hand.
If I were to have posted that (and ruined the idea that I don't do any woodwork - that'd have been a shame), how much discussion would it have garnered? I made a panel-raising plane during the process, and now that the mrs. has requested some more cabinets where we don't currently have them, I guess I'll make a couple of moulding planes (including on askew) to cut the decorative door parts that freud boringly made on the router bit set that I had (I still resent now that I didn't do the doors entirely by hand).
Who else is going to have these conversations, though?
Personally, I share the double iron gimmickry and such on here because nobody around here (locally, geographically) is capable of talking about it. My local friend brought me a table top to smooth for him yesterday (he wanted it to be planed instead of sanded, and he knew I could plane it mark free). His comment to me "the double iron thing doesn't work for me", but each time he sees it, I know he'd like to figure it out. I can't get him to take up the whole idea of "just do it until you get the feel for it". I sense some of that in these threads. Who cares if there are mistakes? I'm sure i"ll find more in my kitchen cabinets when I go to hang them, but if there are some, I will fix them and fit them.
I have one more face frame to make now on a very large side cabinet - maybe I will record and post some of the M&T. There is nearly nobody in the world who can teach me much about planes at this point (sorry, it's the truth), but I sure could stand to learn a lot about what I could do more efficiently cutting tenons.
custard
Established Member
D_W":3iagla46 said:
You and me both. I know plenty of very experienced cabinet makers with no more than "barely adequate" hand saw skills.
A few weeks ago a couple of people on this forum told how they made a side table to a Richard Maguire design, it was mainly held together with bridle joints. When I sat the practical test for admission to a prestigious workshop we spent a day cutting various joints by hand and doing little woodworking tasks like inlay work and dovetailing. But the real killer, the test that separated the sheep from the goats, was cutting bridle joints by hand against the clock. There's absolutely no-where to hide with a bridle joint.
Anyhow, these people gave an account of how they, as relatively inexperienced woodworkers, used a simple little home made jig that Richard Maguire designed to cut their bridle joints. They seemed to do a very accurate and creditable job. It occurred to me that if you can cut a bridle joint accurately with this simple jig then you could certainly cut a tenon.
It would be of huge practical help if, for example, one of them detailed exactly what they did and how it could be utilised for tenons.
G S Haydon
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There are quite a few ways of working tenons by hand. In my experience the most reliable method is cutting to gauge lines and pencil/knife lines. I always aim for off the saw, not always perfect but it seems to work. If they need some adjustment a 25mm chisel is great, perhaps a shoulder plane on a long shoulder such a string to newel post. I might also split a tenon cheek if the grain is favorable.
Using a fillister on really wide tenons can also be used, but not something I do very often.
I have seen people using metal hand routers to keep removing a little at a time. I see that as a very tedious way of working and would only be really effective of machine prepared stuff. My tip would be grab a tenon saw and practice!
The mortising video is great and sitting is really effective for many tasks. Having worked from sawhorses when required the reduced height can be real aid.
Using a fillister on really wide tenons can also be used, but not something I do very often.
I have seen people using metal hand routers to keep removing a little at a time. I see that as a very tedious way of working and would only be really effective of machine prepared stuff. My tip would be grab a tenon saw and practice!
The mortising video is great and sitting is really effective for many tasks. Having worked from sawhorses when required the reduced height can be real aid.
Tasky
Established Member
No need to hurry it up, then...D_W":2vab78gk said:
Depends.D_W":2vab78gk said:
Against injuries from repetitively doing this, then maybe.... But sometimes it can be the very first whack with a chisel that jars something and does you in. And even if not, your body isn't designed to work well while all twisted up like that and ignoring this always cost you in the end. I don't even need to mention microtensions, as there's some pretty major ones right there!!
Is there a reason he's not at least straddling the things?
Why not?D_W":2vab78gk said:
I thought you only needed to watch a professional to improve?
Doing things well might not be so much about less effort, as finer control of the same effort. For example, a big strong lad of 17 might swing a pick axe with more strength, but an old experienced miner with less strength has teh precision and feel to put that strength right through the rock in one swing.
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
There seems to have been a fashion recently for buying big tenon saws - 16" or 18". Just the job for big tenons on entrance door work and the like, but I suspect far to cumbersome for most furniture-sized tenons. Even a dovetail saw would do for the smaller ones.
At school, we were taught and expected to cut them by the classical 'three triangles' method, and to have them fit from the saw. Nobody told us it was difficult, so we just did it - and most people managed it after a couple of goes. Not perfectly every time, but not too shoddy either. I still aim for that, and find that things tend to get worse if I end up with a fat tenon and have to pare it. Fitting straight from the saw sounds hard, but with careful marking out and careful starting of the sawcut, it's actually not as hard as it sounds once you've done a few. If you can do it with a dovetail, you can do it with a tenon.
There's a thing going about 'a dovetail a day for a month'. Maybe we should be plugging 'a mortice and tenon a day for a month', too.
At school, we were taught and expected to cut them by the classical 'three triangles' method, and to have them fit from the saw. Nobody told us it was difficult, so we just did it - and most people managed it after a couple of goes. Not perfectly every time, but not too shoddy either. I still aim for that, and find that things tend to get worse if I end up with a fat tenon and have to pare it. Fitting straight from the saw sounds hard, but with careful marking out and careful starting of the sawcut, it's actually not as hard as it sounds once you've done a few. If you can do it with a dovetail, you can do it with a tenon.
There's a thing going about 'a dovetail a day for a month'. Maybe we should be plugging 'a mortice and tenon a day for a month', too.
Custard, Paul Sellers has done a couple of videos showing a simple home made jig for accurately sawing tenons. It does seem to work well for him.
https://youtu.be/r-08PY3stgo
https://youtu.be/r-08PY3stgo
Tasky":2olip7gn said:No need to hurry it up, then...D_W":2olip7gn said:
Depends.D_W":2olip7gn said:
Against injuries from repetitively doing this, then maybe.... But sometimes it can be the very first whack with a chisel that jars something and does you in. And even if not, your body isn't designed to work well while all twisted up like that and ignoring this always cost you in the end. I don't even need to mention microtensions, as there's some pretty major ones right there!!
Is there a reason he's not at least straddling the things?
Why not?D_W":2olip7gn said:
I thought you only needed to watch a professional to improve?
Doing things well might not be so much about less effort, as finer control of the same effort. For example, a big strong lad of 17 might swing a pick axe with more strength, but an old experienced miner with less strength has teh precision and feel to put that strength right through the rock in one swing.
You're forgetting the part of repetition after observation.
Keep following the instructors who talk a lot and make little.
custard":114ybtee said:
[youtube]2SQ8s3mqd74[/youtube]
You can see them in this intro video, and he goes into detail on how to make them on the paid 'side table' series , but the basic idea is to make one well fitted joint by hand and to use the finished tenon as a reference from which to make two guides (there are two guides so that both the tenon cuts can be referenced from the same face).
His argument for using them was the same as yours, namely that bridle joints are tricky and generally not used often enough for people to become efficient, so the jig pays for itself quite quickly.
You could certainly use then for normal tenons, but the disadvantage is you need one pair for each thickness of timber you are using.
Funnily enough, he does have a little jig for mortices though - similar to the bridle joint jig and used as a sort of combined rod and a fence to hold your chisel against ( meaning you avoid a lot of marking up).
custard
Established Member
nabs":a090a693 said:
That's interesting in itself.
One of the basic rules of cabinet making is "first make the hole, then make the thing that goes in the hole", so the default advice from generations of furniture making experience would be to cut the mortice then make the tenon fit the mortice. It would never even occur to me to work any other way, hats off to Richard Maguire, that's more radical than might be first assumed.
