Regency fluted leg - tricks please?

[condeesteso]

Very good info Digit & Dick, particularly as that approach probably pre-dates routers and I was keen to discover how it was done originally - this is all beginning to fit together I think, whether a router or scratch is used. I suspect the approach with flutes v reeds may differ a bit. yes, I think it's the land that will taper (with flutes) but there is the option to do half / half, by the depth of flute reducing with taper, so land and flute reduce in width towards the tapered foot.
Very informative thread, many thanks all. I have a box to make then... and a test leg to turn.

 

[jimi43]

I have no intention whatever to make Regency fluted legs any time soon but I will be watching this thread with great interest.

What I like about life is that you can see something all your life and take it for granted and then someone says "how do I...." and the fun begins!

Excellent!

Jim

 

[Digit]

If you use a router you will probably need stops as well, a scratch block is slower of course but there's a lot of satisfactio using one I find.
I've been thinking about this since you posted. If the leg has been turned one end will have taken the drive from the lathe, assuming that you didn't use a chuck of course, a similar devise at the fixed end of the box could have a dividing disc attached to it permitting accurate indexing. HTH.

Roy.

 

[bugbear]

This looks promising:

http://www.sapfm.org/forum/index.php?topic=1164.0

OLDTOOLS:

http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php? ... 25#message

BugBear

 

[condeesteso]

Thanks BB - had a look, and fell upon this:

and BugBear replied:
Sounds like a matter for a "moulding box" (AKA turning box) and
a scratch stock

That's the plan for me I think. I may (only may) test a router too mainly out of respect, but I'll have to go buy a small radius cutter specially and I can make the scratch for free in about 20 mins maybe.

 

[AndyT]

This is a fascinating exercise in practical problem-solving isn't it!

I've been thinking about the tapering. Summing up what has been said, and referring carefully to convex reeds and concave flutes I think we have established this:

First fit the tapered leg into a rectangular box, with its thin end lifted so that the top surface is parallel to the long edges of the box.

- If you use a v-shaped scratch (as in the Old Tools diagram) scratching a groove along the top of the tapered leg, you will automatically get tapered reeds.

- If you use hand tools to carve out u-shaped grooves (ie flutes) the natural result is that since the cutter is of constant shape, the flute it cuts will be of uniform cross-section, so any tapering will be in the lands between the flutes.

However, there is a common technique for getting a taper - you temporarily attach a long thin wedge. Imagine this on the outside of the box. A cutter (guided by a fence) - which could be a scratch or a router - could make half of a tapered flute if it was guided by a taper jig like this. If you then swap the long wedge to the opposite side of the box, and make a corresponding cut back up the other side, you could make a tapered flute.

You could possibly get nearly the same thing by tapering the height of one long edge of the box, so that the cutter/router is leaning over, which would widen the top of the cut and slope the sides. (Slightly awkward to alternate the tapering though.)

This really needs a diagram - but I can't get near a scanner or camera just now.

What we also need is some pictures of actual antique legs - how do flutes and reeds look? Are they tapered, or is the tapering on the lands between?

And what about the stopped versions mentioned on the other of BB's links - how do they look? Are they just something for big architectural columns, or did anyone ever attempt them on furniture?

I'm off to Google images of Regency legs - with the best intentions!

 

[Digit]

- If you use a v-shaped scratch (as in the Old Tools diagram) scratching a groove along the top of the tapered leg, you will automatically get tapered reeds.

That bit I get.

- If you use hand tools to carve out u-shaped grooves (ie flutes) the natural result is that since the cutter is of constant shape, the flute it cuts will be of uniform cross-section, so any tapering will be in the lands between the flutes.

That bit I don't. Though the leg is parallel to the box top the radius of the leg is reducing towards the base, thus a half round scratch tool will still produce a tapered flute, surely?
If the leg were raised above the box top but still parallel to the box top and you plained down to the box top the planed surface will taper won't it?

Roy.

 

[AndyT]

That bit I don't. Though the leg is parallel to the box top the radius of the leg is reducing towards the base, thus a half round scratch tool will still produce a tapered flute, surely?
If the leg were raised above the box top but still parallel to the box top and you plained down to the box top the planed surface will taper won't it?

Roy.

I don't think so, though I must say that I am struggling a bit. In my mind's eye, if you did what you say and raised the leg (which is a good way of visualising this) and then planed down level, I think you'd make a rectangle. But then if you rotate the leg to do the next cut, and go as close as you can at the thin end, you would be left with a tapering gap (land) between your new planed surface and the previous one.

 

[Digit]

I'm struggling as well Andy, but as the radius of the leg is changing my natural instinct tells me that if you cut down 3mm from the top of the radius for example, then the small diameter part's shoulders at the cut edges will be lower, which means a tapered flute.
I think!

Roy.

 

[AndyT]

I think I'll wait for Douglas to do his experiments, Roy!

Can we have a full set of measured diagrams and a video as well?!!

 

[Digit]

I think I've got it, if you use a 3 mm half round cutter and cut 4 mm deep you get a parallel flute but cut to say 2 mm you get a tapered flute????

Roy.

 

[Digit]

There is a good side Andy, this sort of excercise is supposed to help prevent dementia!
Make's you go grey though.

Roy

 

[condeesteso]

Crikey - Andy's previous I will need to read more than once (not getting it yet). I see Digit's point that as radius reduces, the flute width reduces, though not much I imagine. I am concentrating on flutes here - reeds open other issues I suspect, and it's flutes I'm after.
This may be covered above once I actually get it Andy, but if we walk away from the tools, jigs and legs for a moment, at any cross-section along the leg a mathematically perfect flute would enjoy reducing radius, and reducing land between. I think that would define a good 'un? But in reality leg radius isn't changing a great deal. A reducing radius cutter is difficult!**
SO, just maybe... if we take Digit's point then set the thin end of leg a fraction lower (if a flute was 2mm radius, I mean say 0.5mm, if that) - until a setupmis achieved where both flute and land reduce in proportion... ?

** but not impossible - back to a scratch, which is rotated so cuts a narrowing flute progressively down the leg.

Andy, I had a quick look for detail shots of fluted legs and didn't find anything big enough... but I suspect the real thing will have a constant flute and narrowing lands. That's a guess but even then, time was money. Let's see what turns up.
Re the stopped flutes, not seen that on furniture personally but it does sound more like an architectural feature to me. Not in my plan anyway, fortunately.

 

[AndyT]

Sorry about all the words - and many of them probably wrong!

Hope these pics will help a bit:

I think these reeds do reduce in width along their length

as do these:

I also found this illuminating article on how to make tapered flutes - a combination of power router and hand work:

http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/page.asp?p=1758

 

[marcros]

Sorry about all the words - and many of them probably wrong!

Hope these pics will help a bit:

I think these reeds do reduce in width along their length

I see something there that would be ideal for my leg vice...

 

[AndyT]

I see something there that would be ideal for my leg vice...

Indeed - and whose bench isn't worth a £1450 upgrade! (well, it is rosewood).

:lol: :lol:

 

[jimi43]

If we ignore diminishing perspective creating an illusion of tapering reeds....because the illusion would apply to the lands also...which look parallel....I would say the reeds taper.

I'd want to actually hold one to believe it though!

Jim

 

[Hudson Carpentry]

I have no intention whatever to make Regency fluted legs any time soon but I will be watching this thread with great interest.

What I like about life is that you can see something all your life and take it for granted and then someone says "how do I...." and the fun begins!

Excellent!

Jim

Indeed. Never tried it myself and never ponded on how they would be done. It is very interesting and tempting to have a go.

 

[Digit]

Yep! It started off sounding easy, hat's off to those chaps who made them by hand for years.

Roy.

 

[condeesteso]

yes indeed, this has been a great thread, and will hopefully be handy in the future. I read the John Bullar feature Andy and was lost til I discovered where the pics are (numbers at top). He has a tapered square leg with flutes converging, so it's a long jig with pivoting guide.
Main thing I picked up there was the combined use of router and hand finishing with an elliptical scraper or scratch, plus small gouge to finish the top stops.
When I asked the question I wasn't planning to knock a set out next day, but I will definitely turn one tapered test leg, make a box jig that can take varying lengths in future and have a go. I will also probably invest in a 3mm cutter for the small router, and try this combination. I even have some pointed steel bolts that came off a stereo stand more than 7 years ago... 'everything comes useful every seven years'
Soon as I have news will report.