Rebate plane confusion

[Bodgers]

In my recent plough plane experiment, I pulled a cheap little Soba shoulder plane thing I had unused from a box, and did a little clean up on the rebate. Which worked well.

I got a comment on my Record plough plane thread suggesting that something like a Stanley No 78 rebate plane thing would be the plane of choice for the operation I was doing.

I've been looking at the 78, and the 778, and to my eyes aren't these just shoulder planes with depth stops and fences, and big handles? Or am I missing something? Could say a large wood shoulder plane from ECE be adapted with a fence to provide the same function?

As I was getting a little tear out, and I came across some grain directions issues, the skew rebate planes caught my eye. The Stanley skew (the 289 I think) looks like a rare plane and basically looks like it goes for what a brand new Veritas skew rebate goes for - so out of the question for now.

There is also the Stanley 140 skew block rebate plane - also expensive and rare. It seems to have a depth stop and fence though - so could it not be used for the same purpose as one of these larger rebate planes? I don't have a low angle block atm either - so possibly quite useful. I notice Lie Nielsen and Veritas do their own versions of the 140...Rob Cosman apparently swears by his...

 

[Jacob]

78 is for rebates but will do as a shoulder plane. A bit on the light side -shoulders need the mass and lower angle of a 773 etc.
N.B. the depth stop, fence, nicker on a 78 are luxury extras which you barely need, in fact most operations are easier without them.

 

[MusicMan]

You can quite often pick up wooden skew rebate planes on ebay for not very much. No depth stops or fences but they do the job nicely, including of course cross-grain.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

A rebate plane is intended for bulk stock removal, to create a large step along a board. Thus, it tends to have a wide mouth intended to allow a thick, long-grain shaving to pass, and most are bevel down. Some rebate planes are made with skew cutters to give a cleaner finish when used across the grain, as with creating the rebate on the ends of a panel to allow it to fit into a grooved frame.

A shoulder plane is intended for the precise trimming for fit of such features as tenon shoulders. Thus, it has a tight mouth for thin shavings, and as most of it's intended duties involve end-grain trimming, they tend to be bevel-down. Good shoulder planes are very precise tools. Sadly, many (especially the budget ones) fall rather short on the accuracy of manufacture that makes their use effective.

Thus, they're not really the same tool at all. That said, there is a bit of cross-over; using a shoulder plane to trim up and adjust a rebate for fit and finish is not uncommon, for example. Using a shoulder plane to sink a rebate from scratch would be possible, but slow; the plane is intended for very thin shavings, so many passes would have to be made. A rebate plane would take out the waste with fewer passes, so quicker.

 

[Bodgers]

A rebate plane is intended for bulk stock removal, to create a large step along a board. Thus, it tends to have a wide mouth intended to allow a thick, long-grain shaving to pass, and most are bevel down. Some rebate planes are made with skew cutters to give a cleaner finish when used across the grain, as with creating the rebate on the ends of a panel to allow it to fit into a grooved frame.

A shoulder plane is intended for the precise trimming for fit of such features as tenon shoulders. Thus, it has a tight mouth for thin shavings, and as most of it's intended duties involve end-grain trimming, they tend to be bevel-down. Good shoulder planes are very precise tools. Sadly, many (especially the budget ones) fall rather short on the accuracy of manufacture that makes their use effective.

Thus, they're not really the same tool at all. That said, there is a bit of cross-over; using a shoulder plane to trim up and adjust a rebate for fit and finish is not uncommon, for example. Using a shoulder plane to sink a rebate from scratch would be possible, but slow; the plane is intended for very thin shavings, so many passes would have to be made. A rebate plane would take out the waste with fewer passes, so quicker.

Ok that makes sense. Sort of like smoother Vs Jack. I forgot about the adjustable mouth on my little Soba.

My only question now is over the value of these skew rebate block planes with the fences (Stanley 140 pattern). I wonder if that would be a suitable all purpose alternative to a 78, given the mouth could be opened wider?



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[Jacob]

No. 140 is a little block plane for one handed use - just trimming bits n bobs.
Not for the hard work of rebating or trimming shoulders.
They aren't very common which suggests they aren't much use compared to a normal non-skewed block plane.

 

[D_W]

In my opinion, if you're going to use a plane for bulk work, you'd be better served by a fettled wooden moving fillister plane.

If you're intending to do something like raising panels, most of the rough work should be done with a bench plane before you get to a finishing plane.

The only thing that a skew plane offers over a straight plane is cleaner end grain work. The rest of the rebate cutting will still involve tearout whether the iron is straight or not. Presumably, all of the pop-up copies of the stanley 289 (maybe there's only one) and the skew on the old moving fillisters is because users were intending to cut show surfaces on end grain (like you would with a raised panel).

The 140 skew block plane is as jacob says, a tidying plane. Not suitable for significant work beyond that, and much more popular now when people buy tools that look like they might be useful rather than buying tools that someone else says are definitely useful.

(jack rabbet bevel up planes, 140s with fences, large scraper planes.....all of those got more popular with crowds that don't actually use planes much, because it feels like you're getting more capability when you buy them - but you're generally getting a tool that you'll not pick up much).

 

[AndyT]

It may help to add that the wooden equivalent of the 78 /078/778 was the moving fillister, like these two:

They generally have a skewed iron, a knicker for cross-grain work, a depth stop and a fence. They will cut a rebate on the near side of the work, up to an inch wide or a bit more.

In direct comparison with the Stanley/Record equivalent, I find that the big skew iron allows a thick shaving to be cut with ease. I prefer the simple slightly rounded block of beech to the cold steel handle, but I expect anyone would soon get used to either. The under-slung fence is slightly harder to adjust.

One other advantage is that they are common and (last time I bought one) cheap.

[I should add that the 78/078/778 have an extra mode - you can set them up with the rods projecting to the right of the body, and the fence arranged to run against the far side of the work. This is not often needed - indeed, as far as I know the only normal operation where it was routinely needed was in making sash window components - hence its name, the sash fillister.

The wooden sash fillister is still pretty common and easy to find - but if you want to buy one on eBay just make sure you look at the pictures not at the descriptions - many eBay sellers cannot tell them apart from a plough plane, or will even describe it as a moulding plane. This thread has a useful side by side plough and sash fillister picture. ]

 

[D_W]

I made a suggestion for the same (the wooden rebate), because in a situation where you actually cut a lot of rebates (as in a lot of volume), they are much less physical effort than a metal rebate plane. It's noticeable once you're pushing one for 20 minutes or an hour, or whatever. They are capable of fine work, of course, but if someone doesn't have the skill to get one in tight shape, they can still do the rough work with the end bits cleaned up with an inexpensive finely set rabbet plane.

The only criticism I can recall having as that for a beginner who expects to use the depth stop and make a dead square rebate within a few thousandths of their intended size....you can end up getting away from that a bit. Better to mark out the rebate with a gauge and cut to the lines (if perfect matters - it usually doesn't).

Veritas makes a dandy skew rabbet metal plane, but in any volume of work (unless you're just working at a slow pace), you cannot get past the fact that the old woodies are far easier to push, even if they are a bit more steep in learning curve as far as the finest of fine work goes (the veritas version is excellent at fine work). Sticky feeling steel, or stopping constantly to wax in heavy work when you have another 20 feet of rebates to cut...no thanks.

 

[Bodgers]

In my opinion, if you're going to use a plane for bulk work, you'd be better served by a fettled wooden moving fillister plane.

If you're intending to do something like raising panels, most of the rough work should be done with a bench plane before you get to a finishing plane.

The only thing that a skew plane offers over a straight plane is cleaner end grain work. The rest of the rebate cutting will still involve tearout whether the iron is straight or not. Presumably, all of the pop-up copies of the stanley 289 (maybe there's only one) and the skew on the old moving fillisters is because users were intending to cut show surfaces on end grain (like you would with a raised panel).

The 140 skew block plane is as jacob says, a tidying plane. Not suitable for significant work beyond that, and much more popular now when people buy tools that look like they might be useful rather than buying tools that someone else says are definitely useful.

(jack rabbet bevel up planes, 140s with fences, large scraper planes.....all of those got more popular with crowds that don't actually use planes much, because it feels like you're getting more capability when you buy them - but you're generally getting a tool that you'll not pick up much).

It may help to add that the wooden equivalent of the 78 /078/778 was the moving fillister, like these two:

They generally have a skewed iron, a knicker for cross-grain work, a depth stop and a fence. They will cut a rebate on the near side of the work, up to an inch wide or a bit more.

In direct comparison with the Stanley/Record equivalent, I find that the big skew iron allows a thick shaving to be cut with ease. I prefer the simple slightly rounded block of beech to the cold steel handle, but I expect anyone would soon get used to either. The under-slung fence is slightly harder to adjust.

One other advantage is that they are common and (last time I bought one) cheap.

[I should add that the 78/078/778 have an extra mode - you can set them up with the rods projecting to the right of the body, and the fence arranged to run against the far side of the work. This is not often needed - indeed, as far as I know the only normal operation where it was routinely needed was in making sash window components - hence its name, the sash fillister.

The wooden sash fillister is still pretty common and easy to find - but if you want to buy one on eBay just make sure you look at the pictures not at the descriptions - many eBay sellers cannot tell them apart from a plough plane, or will even describe it as a moulding plane. This thread has a useful side by side plough and sash fillister picture. ]

Thanks - useful info.

I am no stranger to the woodies, so food for thought...

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[knockknock]

As for the skew block planes, it is all a matter of scale. I did the rebates and relief bevel on this box lid with my skew block plane.

 

[D_W]

Good point. Sometimes we (me) start to grade everything based on whether or not you can build furniture with it.

 

[merlin]

I've got a Stanley 140 block plane, its one of my "glove box tools".

I use it every now and again for cleaning up tenons or things like door lining head joints that go across the grain, its great for tidying but limited for much else.

Merlin

 

[Bodgers]

I've got a Stanley 140 block plane, its one of my "glove box tools".

I use it every now and again for cleaning up tenons or things like door lining head joints that go across the grain, its great for tidying but limited for much else.

Merlin

Interesting. I was reading Derek Cohen's site, and he did a full rehab on his 140 as he thought the mouth was to open amongst other issues...



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[D_W]

On the LN plane, it is. the plane is flimsy without the side, too, and most of the things that you can do with it are better done with another tool (cleaning tenons is faster with a chisel or a float, and if you're going to do slow and try to be machine perfect, better with a router plane).

I had the 140, but just found frustration trying to use it to actually do anything other than play with.