Raised Panels

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Niki":3k654min said:
If such a jig is published by the British "Guild of Master Craftsman", it looks like it is acceptable (at least by the British Masters) to work in some cases with the guard removed.
British Masters? Pah! The Guild of Master Craftsmen isn't a properly regulated trade body at all and therefore their pronouncements on anything aren't worth a bean. They don't issue qualifications nor do they adequately vet their members. As most of us in the UK are aware it is merely an advertising vehicle for tradesmen which sets no standards and regulates nothing. Period.

The professional bodies in the UK are the City & Guilds, Construction Industry Training Board, the Institute of Wood Machining and several Worshipful Companies in the City of London. None of them are involved in commercial publishing and you'll find the only two who have books written for their courses, the C&G and CTITB. They are extremely careful to ensure that publications used in their training schemes incorporate practice which is both safe and legal. This jig used without adequate guarding is neither.

Niki":3k654min said:
This book is sold in UK by AXMINSTER so, it looks like it's very legal otherwise it would be banned, I believe...
This is not Stalinist Russia and there is very little censorship of books here. So books don't get banned. So it is still possible to purchase "Das Kapital", "Mein Kampf" and "Satanic Verses" here, although few actually choose to do so. As to the information contained within books on woodworking, an example might be one of the best books ever written on spindle moulder practice by Eric Stephenson, called "The Spindle Moulder Handbook". The original book is now out of date (mainly in the area of tooling) but it still serves a useful purpose as the fundamentals of guarding, safe workholding and machine practice are still the same - they don't change that much. The principle that you guard a blade or cutter is pretty much accepted as a norm for safe working. Why can't you accept that?

The problem comes when books from the USA in particular are published in the UK because of the language similarity. US practice in many areas lags well behind the EU and US publishers seem to take scant notice of safety whilst reputable publishers here, such as Stobart Davis actually do make an effort to ensure that their publications reflect safe working practice, something which the British magazines also seem to do to a greater or lesser extent.

Niki":3k654min said:
So, an amateur is buying this British book (like I did), and makes the jig as published but then the law is telling him "no, no". I cannot understand it.
The law doesn't tell him no, unless he is a professional, in which case he is guided to examine safe working practice, which is not the safe as an absolute "No". May I point out here that many of Wearings books were originally published in the 1970s or early 1980s and don't appear to have been updated since then. What passed as acceptable back then then, such as stacked dado heads on table saws (and even then guarding was required in commercial establishments) is now, in the light of experience, regarded as unsafe. But having got a number of Wearing's books I do know that he neither advises in favour of or against the use of guards - the decision is left to the reader as to whether or not it is "common sense" to omit guarding. Wearing taught woodworking, and what I can tell you that if you had attempted to use a table saw sans crown guard in a training workshop even back then in the 1970s that you'd have been stopped from doing so. The use of guarding is hardly new. So I say again. What makes you, by your own admission an untrained amateur of limited experience, able to so categorically naysay what is regarded as safe practice by training bodies across the EU, that for the sake of safety blades and cutters should be guarded?

Scrit
 
The GoMC is just an organisation with a poncy name. You get to be a member by paying a fee and that's it, or at least that's the way it used to be, it might have changed, I haven't looked.

I nearly bought a house once that was owned by a 'Master Builder' - 'Master' because he was a member of the GoMC. The survey came back with a list of problems (with stuff executed by the owner) that covered a whole page of A4, and a summary which merely said 'Do not buy this house.'

So I always take anything to do with the GoMC with a pound or two of salt.

EDIT: Ah, I see Scrit beat me to it. At least it's not just me then.
 
Nick W":3tj4b6w0 said:
EDIT: Ah, I see Scrit beat me to it. At least it's not just me then.
And possibly a little more scathingly? :roll: Glad it's not just me who thinks they're a waste of space, professionally speaking

Scrit
 
I've been reading this thread with great interest and to chip in my 2p's worth, I think Scrit has it nailed tight. There is a huge amount of diverse experience on this forum and to disregard Scrit's vast amount of knowledge in this particular area is at your peril. I have been using woodworking machinery in an amateur and professional way for 35 years now and still have all my digits in tact. I won't say that I have never used an unguarded saw blade 'cos I have but I am very well aware of the pitfalls. The most serious damage I have done is using a Stanley knife (easily the most dangerous edge tool in a 'shop) to cut veneer against a thin rule where the knife blade rode up over the edge and I cut my thumb badly.....twice.....in the same place :shock: . Muppetry or what? - Rob
 
seaco":8e1u5tp8 said:
Cutting a raised panel on a TS using a jig fashioned like this makes the process fairly safe your fingers stay well away... :wink:

http://www.newwoodworker.com/pnlrasjig.html
Just had a look at this jig. Mine was same but different - with the blade tilted opposite way and embedded into the false fence hence effectively protected to some extent. Next prob was the sling shot effect of the cut off taper getting trapped and shot out, solved by removing the bottom of the false fence so that the taper could fall away safely. The whole thing could then be covered by another false fence on the other side of the blade making it impossible to touch even if you wanted to. Very safe.
Er - praps needs a diagram, let me know :shock:

cheers
Jacob
Stanley knife also my worst cut so far - into my wrist but missed the artery. I was young and stupid. Doctor was worried that it might have been a suicide attempt. Things not that bad yet :roll: except for being old and stupid.
Needless to say I have since always obeyed the rule of cutting away - or never having any part of the anatomy in front of a blade esp if I'm pushing it e.g. not chiselling towards a hand holding the piece etc
 
GoMC is just an organisation with a poncy name
Nice one Nick :lol: :lol:

Well I've got to say Scrit has it spot on. If you don't listen - be it on your own head(s). ANY decent Training Course / School will spend weeks on repetitive safe working practice until it becomes second nature. All you have to do is look around at the numberless accounts and web sites covering the results of not taking note. After years of working in the States and Canada, I brought most of shop machinery over here and one of the first things I did after seeing the vast difference in practice in the U.K., was to relegate my Table Saw to the sole job of panel ripping. I do use the Osborne Jig for some mitre jobs - but stacked Dado blades!! Brand new top of the line Freud set sitting here unpacked (and staying that way).

I'd rather finish the job w/o pain and blood! Can't pick up a pint and peanuts without the required digital functionality!!
 
Well I have to be honest I did not think about the safety aspects when asking the question, but clearly it is a big issue and thank you all for your inputs, I have certainly learnt something.

However back to the original question, it seems a tapered edge is ok as long as there is plenty of clearance, ( perhaps a dab of glue in the centre top and bottom assuming grain is vertical) how much clearance could be an interesting issue. Clearly if the panel was very dry when fitted on expansion the tapered edge could wedge tight. I also think the parallel land that you get with the router looks better, but very expensive for a couple of panels.
 
I did one just a shoulder plane, and a couple of regular smoothers. It doesn't take long at all.

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Adam
 
OK Scrit
So, an amateur wants to start a woodworking hobby and I'll give you an example of myself.

I was living in Japan at that time and I was looking for something to learn about woodworking.
I think that it's only normal that I will look for books that will teach me the basics of woodworking.
So, I got on "Amazon.com" and selected the "Complete manual of woodworking", "table saw magic", "router magic", "Woodworking aids & devices", Roy Sutton's "Jig making for router" and a few more.

I did not have anybody to tell me that "Masters" are good and Roy Sutton is not good (personally I think that he is the best) but I wanted to work and I referred to the books as kind of "Authority" in the field because in any other field, (maybe except woodworking), when somebody writes a book he gets the "master" degree.

And buy the way Scrit, don't think that I don't consider, respect and agree with what you are saying...well at least with most of it :) ....I even "advertised" you on other forum and titled you as "Accidents investigator" and you could see on my posts that the guard is installed (and believe me, not only for the pics) because, when I said for UFO's, I meant also flying carbide tips. But, I have some "perversions" sometime...

And still, you will not make me a Christian (first you have to make me a Jew) :)

Best regards
niki
 
I'm getting dragged back in again, I also have great respect for you and others Scrit I bow to your knowledge but I to learnt in a different way to you I am an enthusiastic amateur and books and TV shows lead the way, and through trial and error I learnt how to be safe with the tools I had and have I quickly decided a crown guard was to limiting on the TS, for that reason I went to all the effort to build this...

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So don't for one minute think that safety isn't at the top of the list

As I have said previously as Niki has, our safety practices won't change because a bloke in a white coat says that's the way it should be done I don't care about any City & Guilds, Construction Industry Training Board, or the Institute of Wood Machining, you obviously had or have or want to due to being in the profession and now it's ingrained in you... which is fine by me and if I was starting out again I might head more along your way of thinking but my way works for me...

On a last note I must apologise to Newt as he only wanted to know if it was ok to have a taper on his panels... :oops:
 
If I had a penny for every time someone told me that safety is 'just common sense' I be a reasonably well off man.

I expect many of the 212 people who died at work and the 300,000 who reported injuries in 2005/06 though that as well. Pretty tough lesson to learn eh? I know that might sound a a bit exessive for a woodworking forum but it really does wind me up. And you can throw in over 30 million working days lost as well.

Why? Well I've worked in the health and safety field for over 20 years now and I've seen first hand the pain, suffering and misery that 'common sense' can lead to. This includes several woodworking machine accidents to 'experienced' machinists.

You may get away with something for years, you might feel in control and accept the breath of a saw blade against the back of your hand but a nano second can see it all go so terribly wrong.

At the end of the day we all have choices to make and in the amateur workshop it's up to individuals what choices they make. When those choices are properly informed they do tend to be safer) and less of a drain on the NHS!).

Safe woodworking everyone.
 
When i started ww in the late 70s i worked with fully trained machinists and they admitted that to do some types of work they had to take guards off machines.
Me being a lad at the time thought it was a dangerous practice but these blokes knew what they were doing and were confident enough to do what they done.It was all they ever done,machining.They knew the pifalls.
Later in my working career other shops just employed machinists,just to machine.They knew the dangers of machines,from experience too themselves.Including loss of fingers,"just part of the job"they would say.
I have seen many accidents with guards on machines,some close calls to myself,where i have blamed the guard for being in the way.
Later still where i was foreman of the shop we had to take on a younger lad.I just could not believe what i used to see regarding safety on machines.Even so called experienced machinists.
These young lads never had a clue about safety no matter how many times you showed or told them they just ignored most of the safety issues and carried on,one lad coming to me one day with blood running down his arm saying that he "just felt the blade to see how sharp it was"while it was running.
Things seem to have changed over time regarding machinery.Where you had just machinists just doing machining,it seems to me that a lot of the time it's just people coming straight into a dangerous enviroment and been told to get on with it,and some try.
Paul.J.
 
there does seem to be a lack of "common sense" these days.

maybe i am looking through rose coloured glasses, but even the uni grads i had to teach how to file back in the day seemed to have a much more healthy respect for tools than many people these days.

i am sure that the move straight to power tools for many people constitutes a problem, cause they do not learn techniques before practising with machinery.

when i model make, i no longer work all night to finish something, because of the number of times i ruined either the paintwork or the decalling by being tired and over confident.

i believe that we all become too confident in the tools and machines that we use, and thus are likely not to take the proper care ALL the time.
the extractor deal looks good, but does not answer the basic question which was use a blade cover or not :twisted: :roll:

paul :wink:
 
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