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Niki":7538ik6h said:
After reading all this discussion (and the others), I can just come to a conclusion that, if I (as an amateur and maybe small shop) don't have 10,000~50,000 Pounds to invest in woodworking machines, I should not touch this field or....
Safe working doesn't cost stacks of money, Niki, it does however take some investment in thought. I know of few trades woodworkers who are willing or able to expend a huge amount on bought-in safety equipment, myself included, but what is apparent is that some people are totally clueless, others do have an idea but turn a blind eye to safety because they can't be bothered to figure things out - it's easier to ignore a potential problem than design it out at the beginning - whilst there are some who are receptive or thoughtful enough to come up with appropriate solutions.

Niki":7538ik6h said:
I think that amateurs does not want or, cannot invest in all the kinds of the "correct machine for the job" because they don't make the living of it.
It isn't a case of "the correct machine for the job". It's actually a case of the safest approach using the equipment to hand. All too often people will simply take a jig out of a magazine without so much as attempting to think about another way there may be to solve a problem - often because they are untaught or self-taught and are simply unaware that there are normally many solutions to a given problem in woodworking. Gadgetitis has a habit of creeping in as well, especially when commercial companies are peddling "instant solutions". A classic example of this is the Grrrripper, a device with some safety flaws designed right in when basic home-made twopenny halfpenny push sticks and a bit of training or reading could achieve the same and more.

Niki":7538ik6h said:
So, it's only normal that the amateur (and maybe the small pros) will try to use the maximum from the very few machines that they own by using some jigs that are not expectable by the law makers.
The law makers have little to do with this discussion, which is after all a discussion about personal safety. I tend to use examples from the HSE web site as many of the examples shown there can be made in the workshop and are most definitely not bought in solutions. The problem possibly comes from the "instant gratification" some people seem to require from everything they do.

I'll also refer to legislation to illustrate that certain procedures are proscribed for trained, professional woodworkers. Why is that? It's because over a long period (in the case of the UK about a century) a body of evidence has built up which shows some processes to be dangerous, so the law maker's ban them for people working in the trades. Not surprisingly in the 1990s when the various insurers, Trades Unions and safety councils, etc were looking into harmonising regulations for the EU they found that for most EU states similar accidents had occurred and that overall solutions to theses were very similar. At the end of the day the legislators and the courts have decided over many years that "common sense" is no substitute for protection and have acted accordingly. All this is despite the fact that a trained wood machinist is in general going to be a lot more aware of potential hazards than an untrained person.

I have no objection to almost anything people do in their own workshops (let's leave explosives out of this, shall we?), but there is something questionable about people proferring potentially hazardous solutions to others who are not necessarilly aware of any potential pitfalls. That is the blind leading the blind.

If you want a case in point, take your panel width sizing jig which ran with the workpiece on the wrong side of the fence and an unguarded cutter. "Common sense" surely should have dictated that this might be hazardous, or that there were another potential solutions which might be less hazardous. The more obvious solutions would included making a stepped fence for the router table together with a setting jig or to make the cut on a table saw with a micro-adjuster for the rip fence. Gadgetitis again, IMHO

Niki":7538ik6h said:
When I read about a guy that lost his fingers on the Table saw or the router, I'm very sorry for him from one side but, from the other side, I'm asking myself (and I would like to ask him, face to face), what his fingers where doing near the blade or the bit.
My first thought is actually a question, "was he using the guards?". Often the answer is no. One of the problems about doing any machining job is the number of "inputs" you have to process. If you are concentrating on watching the actual cut being done by an unguarded blade you are not necessarily watching out for you fingers or ensuring that you are in a balanced stance. Putting a guard above a blade has the effect of providing an additional visual and tactile warning of potential danger ahead. Not one less "input" to process, but certainly a "backup system". Unfortunately Commonsense doesn't come as a plug-in for Concentration.

Niki":7538ik6h said:
IMHO, the guard is there to guard against "UFO's", not to save ones fingers......

IMHO, Safety is in the Head.
Two more chestnuts trotted out with boring regularity, especially on the American forums. The guards are there to shield you from the cutters and anything which can be ejected from same. Safety begins with mechanical and electrical safety - I'd say that without that anything in your head is of dubious value. Surely a safe system is one where primary safety is designed in.

Niki":7538ik6h said:
I worked 10 years on a "homemade" table saw not only without guard but also without riving knife. I never had kickback but, I did cut my fingers a few times......while using the utility knife....
Another chestnut! I used to be involved in cutting several tons of sheet stock a week. I did experience kickbacks on a few occasions, normally because I was in a hurry or tired and there was a momentary lapse of concentration. Other times it would be because I was cutting a sheet which had case-hardened. The kickbacks weren't major and I never had more than a few blood blisters and the odd cut or so. Just because it hasn't happened to you so far doesn't mean it won't and it is nothing more than foolhardiness to come out with such a comment I feel.

Scrit
 
Interesting debate this one, and I have to side with Scrit on this as my grandfather lost a couple of fingers while working in a wood-mill. Now, my grandard is vastly experienced craftsman and still managed to be involved in an accident, so that means that lesser mortals are just as likely if not more likely to injure themselves with inappropriate usage of a machine.

Cutting Dado's and raised panels on a tablesaw seem rediculous to me when there are cheaper, safer and more practical solutions available to the hobbyist. In fact, a tablesaw isn't even strictly needed in a hobby workshop, one can easily get by with other methods without compromising safety.

I commend all those with a disregard for safety and their 'commonsense' approach, your the real innovators, your the guy's coming up with these wonderful jigs and bobs to do christ knows what with a tablesaw, you keep it up, but do us all a favour - dont make out that it's at all safe for everyone to follow your lead, because it's not!
 
Hey, anyone wish for a bit of levity :lol: ... better than sharing what I think of this thread. There's always this method...posted one flight down.

Take care, Mike

PS, what I think of this issue should be obvious from the few times I have dared to enter these discussions...
 
ByronBlack no one said that making a jig would make you safe, COMMON SENSE makes you safe, the point we are making is the table saw can and does get used for alot more than just ripping and yes in reality a hobbist probably could get by without one but once you realise ALL the things that a TS can do then I for one wouldn't be without it... and don't think for one moment that we aren't working safe! your way is just different.
 
Mike, thats a much better solution!!

Seaco - Just because you can do many things with the TS doesn't mean that it's safe to do so, or that one should do it. I respect your differing opinion, but I think it can be dangerous to openly promote non-safe working of such a potentially dangerous tool.

I can understand your commonsense approach, and I agree that it is how we should all be in lots of aspects of life, but when dealing with a machine that can potentially leave a person handicapped in some form or the other, I think we should go out of our way to design/develop sound techniques that work with minimal risk. Running a panel on its edge through a blade is just so completlely un nessaccary.
 
MikeW":3ahrv7r0 said:
There's always this method...posted one flight down.
So, Mike, where's the "On" switch? :lol: Maybe I should dust off the old badger plane after all.....

Scrit
 
ByronBlack":2z65x05q said:
I respect your differing opinion, but I think it can be dangerous to openly promote non-safe working of such a potentially dangerous tool.

Sorry Byron but I'm not promoting it I'm saying that's what I do and many others, if someone else chooses to use the same method then that's their choice...

ByronBlack":2z65x05q said:
I can understand your commonsense approach, and I agree that it is how we should all be in lots of aspects of life, but when dealing with a machine that can potentially leave a person handicapped in some form or the other,

So can a car but after you pass your test you get your own bad habits (we all do) and from then on it's COMMON SENSE that protects you!
 
Ha, I eat a bowl of Wheaties every morning to power the thing :lol:

For the number of raised panels I do, and of course my preoccupation with hand tools, a hand plane solution works for me. I mean, on the last credenza I made with rasied panels there were only 7 of the things in Mahogany.

When I turned up the volume on making furniture, it was a power-fed shaper for raised panels. Much faster and of course there is the safety thing. I still have one shaper, the 2 hp Jet. Little pipper. Relatively inexpensive power-feeder for it. Makes for more assured results anyway. Total cost for both was about $1200 US at the time.

One reason, aside from the safety discussion, for the two separate machines was productivity. Setting the shaper up for various tasks is faster than the setting up the TS, tearing it down and setting it back up for its main purpose.

While the small shaper takes up some room in my all to small a shop these days [12' x 12'], I have a 36 mm thick piece of Baltic Birch which attaches to the top with a few rare earth magnets and it becomes a work table when not in use.

Now I should take my leave and go back down a flight of stairs where it is safer for me--speaking of safety... :wink:

Take care, Mike
 
MikeW":b4fzsu2p said:
One reason, aside from the safety discussion, for the two separate machines was productivity. Setting the shaper up for various tasks is faster than the setting up the TS.

Which is fine Mike if you own one!
 
seaco":qrhsvcwd said:
MikeW":qrhsvcwd said:
One reason, aside from the safety discussion, for the two separate machines was productivity. Setting the shaper up for various tasks is faster than the setting up the TS.
Which is fine Mike if you own one!
Ok. Here I go breaking my first rule of hit-and-run posting: coming back into the thread :lol:

I think that most of us do not have endlessly deep pockets to purchase tools. However, no matter how long it took to save for the table saw you have, start saving for a shaper. Really, it's that simple.

I will not argue from the safety side of table saw use. My background is obviously different than most here. While I have had but one tablesaw accident [which would have been prevented with a proper riving knife], "common sense" says that there are simply more efficient means of cutting raised panels than a tablesaw--it just so happens it is safer as well.

One problem with "common sense" is that not only does it mean something different to different people, it is, as my grandfather would say, not all too common either.

I am certain neither you nor anyone else sets out to hurt themselves using a tool of any kind. That is the "common" bond behind all our good intentions. And the fact remains that people get hurt even with proper safeguards in place. The idea behind the regs I would think are to limit the risk.

Ok. Now I really am leaving the thread...Take care, Mike
 
I only buy tools I really need and as yet a shaper isn't one it wouldn't get enough use to justify it's cost...
 
MikeW":1po8nkpu said:
snip
"common sense" says that there are simply more efficient means of cutting raised panels than a tablesaw--
snip
Actually a tablesaw is a fast and efficient way to do it, and can be done very safely as per my post earlier.
I know this from having replaced a load of panelling after a fire in a listed building - it had to be copied exactly and all the old stuff had been done on a table saw.
I also take notice of Scrit's concerns about safety. The prob is that designers, manufacturers, safety specialists etc have not done their research into making some processes safer - so we have to make our own jigs, fences, and take other precautions.
My own machine (Mimimax lab300) is a good example of this - lots of cut off switches built in which work when you open a cover etc, but the main emergency switches are really badly placed so that you can't see them or operate them at all quickly. And it's easy to forget that you haven't switched over when you change functions, and accidently switch on the planer when you thought it was the saw. This is a design fault. Surprised me several times! Luckily no-one leaning over the planer at the time.

It's useful to have a safety routine e.g. always winding back an exposed saw blade when not in use, always isolating machinery not in use to avoid accidental switch on etc. etc.

cheers
Jacob
 
seaco":3dqsvcec said:
So can a car but after you pass your test you get your own bad habits (we all do) and from then on it's COMMON SENSE that protects you!

Hi Seaco

When is the last time you went driving :shock: :wink:

I can see both sides of this as I used to do some of the things you do now with your saw.

I have also been lucky/unlucky to have cut myself on a Table saw a few times ( but still have all my fingers ), I no longer have a TS in my workshop and dont miss it ( have the EZ and two circular saws, 190mm and 235mm blades )

I would no longer use a TS like you do ( seaco ), good luck to you that you do but for me I was that a small mistake at the wrong time would leave me missing a finger or two if I am lucky.

From what I can see and have done ( 23 years a furniture restorer :shock:), Scrit is pointing out the pit falls of what you are doing and unless you have been taught what they are, you/ some one could find out to late.

Regards Colin
 
seaco":1z2o4rmb said:
ByronBlack":1z2o4rmb said:
I respect your differing opinion, but I think it can be dangerous to openly promote non-safe working of such a potentially dangerous tool.

Sorry Byron but I'm not promoting it I'm saying that's what I do and many others, if someone else chooses to use the same method then that's their choice...

ByronBlack":1z2o4rmb said:
I can understand your commonsense approach, and I agree that it is how we should all be in lots of aspects of life, but when dealing with a machine that can potentially leave a person handicapped in some form or the other,

So can a car but after you pass your test you get your own bad habits (we all do) and from then on it's COMMON SENSE that protects you!

BUT you have spent x amount of time learning to be safe and how to drive correctly, this is NOT the case in misusing a piece of machinery, there is no license or test to makesure you are proficient before you use it, there are not safety guidelines that you have to adhere to before you are allowed to use it (as a hobbyist) so that's a rather poor and weak analogy.

And its irresponsible of you and others to think that your wayward carefree usage of a machine would not rub off on others, you only have to look at Norms poor use of machinery to see how many poor americans are unable to use their equipment properly, whether you feel responsible or not, you do have an effect on how others use their goods, and by not promoting safety usage then you are only compounding the problem (Please note, this is not a direct attack on yourself, just the discussion in general in terms of how others use and promote un-safe work).
 
This is getting really really boring now, I've given my opinion you've said nothing to convince me, I'm not going to change and neither are you so lets just go and build our wooden things shall we?... :wink:
 
Agree'd, however, i'll have more limbs and digits than you afterwards! :lol: :lol: Only Joking!

To be honest, most of my discussion was based on devils advocate, after the hassles of my P/T it's good to have a good ol'debate now and again!
 
Much as I like lively debate leave aside any personal attacks. It's not hard to disagree in a civil and polite manner. That goes for most of the posters in this thread. If you disagree with an opinion it doesn't mean that that particular opinion is wrong.
So please continue but keep it civil.
 
gee byron, did you read the same thread as me :twisted: :roll:

my experience with asking scrit questions is that he offers a sensible and learned answer to same. he is reminding us all that when we work with rotating machinery on which most of us have not had any training, there is a need to use the safety kit provided since it is there to help us keep all our limbs, and bits thereof.

long ago when i did my apprenticeship, we had daily and weekly safety lectures. to this day i wear my watch on my right wrist because i was taught to work a lathe, and you rest your wrist and hand on the headstock
so don't want to be de-gloved, ie have skin stripped off because your watch strap gets caught on the chuck jaws. BETTER SAFE THAN IN HOSPITAL.

sure you can use the saw in any way you wish, and indeed we have all seen the saws in Malaysia and africa which make us seem overly timid.
but we tend to prefer to live longer over here. i can see the attraction of using the table saw to do this job, but why not be sure that you are going to be aware at all the time. almost all accidents occur because of two things, tiredness,and overconfidence. one often leading to the other.
i have learnt not to do certain detail work after a certain time at night when making things because i ALWAYS stuff up, maybe not fatally, but enough to have wasted my time.

whilst i admire the work of many of the people who have contributed and shown that they are happy working on their own without safety kit.i remember that i am working alone, and presently taking a blood thinning drug so if i get cut i BLEED for HOURS :twisted:

on that basis, i tend to be more cautious. but i can understand the attraction of DO IT NOW (hammer)

i would suggest that everybody reads more carefully the words behind those printed by scrit, and he is trying to make you think about making what you are about to do is as safe as you can make it.

a sensible man would i suggest use a router table, a rat, a hand plane, or an RAS if they have one.

the basic thing is a table saw cuts wood in straight lines and throws off the waste. it is not a universal machine, and should not be treated like one.
if you are going to cut odd shapes, then think of a jig that ensures that the wood is held properly and preferably securely against something, whilst having the blade vertical. seems to me that is a sensible precaution.

being alive is a really good feeling, why risk it to save a couple of minutes, and more importantly stop slagging someone off when they suggest that you step back and think twice before you cut. :-k

paul :wink:
 
The jig that Seaco presented here is not new at all, it was published in "Jim Tolpin's Table Saw Magic" book (I have the 1999 addition) on page 185.

Almost the same jig (but operated on the miter slot!!!) was published by Robert Wearing's "Making Woodwork Aids & Devices". The book was published in UK at 1999 by the
"Guild of Master Craftsman Publication Ltd"
Castle Place, 166 High street
Lewes, East Sussex BN7 1Xu

If such a jig is published by the British "Guild of Master Craftsman", it looks like it is acceptable (at least by the British Masters) to work in some cases with the guard removed.

This book is sold in UK by AXMINSTER so, it looks like it's very legal otherwise it would be banned, I believe...
http://www.axminster.co.uk/category-Wor ... 207757.htm

So, an amateur is buying this British book (like I did), and makes the jig as published but then the law is telling him "no, no". I cannot understand it.

But as Seaco said, and I will put my way:
"I, will not convince you to become a Jew and you, will not convince me to become a Christian". We both think that we are "the correct and only way".
Or, in other words: It's an endless argument that leads to nowher(as you can see it goes on already 2000 years and still...) :)

I wish you all a very safe work, whichever way you choose...
niki
 
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