Raised Panels

[newt]

A raised panel when using a router provides a parallel section that slides in the rails/stiles. However I have seen panels raised using a table saw/band saw which can only provide a slope right to the edge. If the raised panel is designed to move with expansion and contraction how can this work if there is effectively a taper at the edge unless it is a very loose fit.

 

[Anonymous]

Well yes a loose fit that's OK. Thats how lots of them are done. Usually the angle is acute enough to make no noticeable difference.
You could cut a parallel sided rebate into the tapered edge, to fit the slot, if you thought it was necessary, but you'd have to leave the back of the rebate well clear of the stiles/rails to allow for movement. Praps not worth the bother.

cheers
Jacob

 

[Paul Chapman]

there is effectively a taper at the edge

In most old text books I've read on the subject of fielded panels made with hand planes, they are done with a taper as you describe, so I've always assumed that it's not a problem in practice.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[johnemtee]

I recently made several doors with raised panels cut on a table saw. By setting the panels at an angle to the saw blade it was simple to create a flat land around the edge. It meant a couple of passes but no problem.

 

[Scrit]

I recently made several doors with raised panels cut on a table saw. By setting the panels at an angle to the saw blade it was simple to create a flat land around the edge. It meant a couple of passes but no problem.

A standard note of caution here - if you field panels on a table saw it requires the crown guard to be removed and is therefore a potentially hazardous practice, in part because yo are attempting to balance a panel on edge whilst cutting it. It is long a practice long since banned in trade shops on safety grounds. A safer method is to field with a badger plane, use a router cutter in a router table or a spindle moulder with appropriate Shaw guards.

As Jacob says, though, traditional panels dispensed with the flat land so there's probably no good reason to have them other than ease of grinding (of the cutter), and with shrinkage might not a flat land reveal itself rather conspicuously at the top or sides of panels?

Scrit

 

[seaco]

Cutting a raised panel on a TS using a jig fashioned like this makes the process fairly safe your fingers stay well away... :wink:

http://www.newwoodworker.com/pnlrasjig.html

 

[Scrit]

That's a matter of opinion. The City & Guilds, HSE and my insurers wouldn't agree with you on that so I think Ill follow their lead, thanks

Scrit

 

[seaco]

Yeah but if we listen to all the rules and regulations we wouldn't turn the bloody saw on...

I personally am not worried about any City and Guilds or insurers I use my own common sense.... :wink:

 

[engineer one]

i wonder whether the change over to flat lands was as much to do with the introduction of machine tools for the work, as the more modern practice of
varnishing and or, finishing the panel to the edges before installation?

also i am sure that if you investigate older panels, the slot is slightly tapered too. even when done by hand.

not claiming vast knowledge, but it seems logical since the tapered panels went on for so long. :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

I use my own common sense.... :wink:

There's no such thing as common sense - common sense is what tells you that if you've done something 100 times then it's safe to do it for the 101st time. It frequently bears no relationship to the reality of the situation, as any risk assessor or safety man will tell you.

Scrit

 

[seaco]

Ok Scrit so I've used that jig 100 times so I know it's safe for cut 101, your logic stating there's no such thing as common sense amazes me maybe you need your written rules to function I myself still use COMMON SENSE yes it does exsist... :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Problem is that there are so many useful things you can do if you don't follow the rules exactly esp with a table saw.
I think the onus is on the manufacturers to make these things safer rather than expecting us not to do them ever.
It is possible to do a fielded panel safely however:
You need a fresh insert tight up around the blade so that the panel can't drop into the slot. Drop in a bit of ply and raise the blade through it at the desired angle - put a box over it for safety if the manufacturers have not designed for this!
Then you need a deep false fence for stability. Then you need another false fence close on the other side of the blade - incorporating springs to hold the panel against fence 1. The panel is then passed through the narrow slot and the blade is safely out of reach.
Manufacturers should supply kit like this or give details on how to diy safely, rather than hiding irresponsibly behind rules :roll: e.g I've got a Felder video showing a safe jig for cutting tenon cheeks over a circ saw. Come to think I've never used it - I'll give it a go tomorrow perhaps.

cheers
Jacob

 

[Scrit]

.....so I've used that jig 100 times so I know it's safe for cut 101, your logic stating there's no such thing as common sense amazes me maybe you need your written rules to function I myself still use COMMON SENSE yes it does exsist... :wink:

Your logic is flawed if you think that. Logic and common sense are most certainly not the same thing. The device you showed has no provision to handle problems in the event of a kickback or other mishap and would need to be used with a zero clearance insert for safety. Run the taper edge too thin and I'd expect a jam or possibly worse. In other words it's a flawed design. That's application of standard wood machining practice - whereas your common sense doesn't see these potential pitfalls. In other words if that's common sense then it makes little sense to me

Manufacturers should supply kit like this or give details on how to diy safely, rather than hiding irresponsibly behind rules :roll:

How about some people actually taking the time to learn how to do things by reading a few books or attending a training course, then? If you think qabout it car makers have the same problems The handbook shows you the basics but they needs must assume a certain level of comprehension. If you want to drive off road a training course certainly makes sense, at least to me in the same way that you'd normally get some instruction on how to ride a motorbike or shoot a shotgun before having an accident.

So if you have a safe way to machine these panels, Jacob, then please publish it for the benefit of the community at large.

Scrit

 

[seaco]

It amazes me how with all your rules and regs. how you let yourself even touch a wood working machine let alone make something?

If you make the jig properly and use COMMON SENSE i.e. zero clearance insert, get your measurements right , good clamping before you start then it's an excellent and easy way to raise a panel...

Your amazing crown guard won't save you from kick back either... doing everything your way totally limits the use of one of the best bits of kit invented in the workshop the table saw... Oh! and I haven't even mentioned the devils spawn 'dado'... :wink:

 

[johnemtee]

I did'nt cut the panel by running it edge on but flat!
I imagine such a practice would require a very specialist jig.
And yes I did and do work without a guard when using the saw most of the time. My friend who lost his fingers on such a saw is a constant reminder to be more than careful.
I am not bragging but just being truthful and would never recomend it to others.

 

[Scrit]

It amazes me how with all your rules and regs. how you let yourself even touch a wood working machine let alone make something?

Not my rules and regs., but what is accepted safe practice - i.e. what they teach at colleges (even to vocational woodworkers like you). But then you appear to be one of those people who thinks that the "rules" are all silly nanny-state nonesense and that they know better. Let's hope you don't apply that principle when you drive a car. What you've failed to appreciate is that a trade woodworker is taught that any process should be done in the safest manner possible or a safe alternative method found to do the task. You're approach seems to me to be "I have a table saw and I'm going to use it for everything come hell or high water", almost as though you are trying to justify it's exitence.

If you make the jig properly and use COMMON SENSE i.e. zero clearance insert, get your measurements right , good clamping before you start then it's an excellent and easy way to raise a panel...

Firstly not all saws permit a zero clearance insert, secondly what do you mean by "if you make the jig properly"? A bit hazy, that. As your jig doesn't guard the blade it is not safe. In that state it never will be. Period. Guard the blade and I'd be more inclined to agree with you that it could be a viable approach. although I feel there are better alternatives.

Your amazing crown guard won't save you from kick back either...

No, but then I never said it did, in conventional sawing using a riving knife and a short rip fence (instead of that under-engineered, over-priced and over-hyped piece of tat peddled by Biesmeyer) does that instead as you well know. As often stated, the guard is their to protect you from sticking your mitts in the blade or as a visual "key". Of course if you push work through a blade in such a way that it is possible for the work to slide down onto or be accidentally knocked down onto the top of the blade in cut as in your jig a kickback becomes a possibility - and without a guard you then can have problems.

....doing everything your way totally limits the use of one of the best bits of kit invented in the workshop the table saw... Oh! and I haven't even mentioned the devils spawn 'dado'... :wink:

Doing things the safe way - not my way, but the way wood machinists are taught to approach the task - inevitably means that some tasks are simply not worth jigging up for on the table saw when there are safer/better/quicker/cheaper alternatives to hand. As to the dado head I've been using them on and off for more than 30 years (in recent years only on a RAS) so I probably have a good idea what they are capable of, but you know, the every time I introduce a dado head user to the spindle moulder it always amuses me the sort of epiphany they seem to experience when they discover just how poor a dado head is in comparison for tasks such as rebating, tenoning, etc..

Scrit

 

[seaco]

(even to vocational woodworkers like you). But then you appear to be one of those people who thinks that the "rules" are all silly nanny-state nonesense and that they know better.

Not at all I use my common sense to tell me if it's safe or not I don't need to read a book to tell me it's dangerous...

Firstly not all saws permit a zero clearance insert, secondly what do you mean by "if you make the jig properly"? A bit hazy, that.

Well I mean if you make it as the link says, this will keep your fingers well away from the blade...

(instead of that under-engineered, over-priced and over-hyped piece of tat peddled by Biesmeyer)

Can't agree there me old matey my Biesmeyer has never given me a moments problem, slagging off peoples equipment won't help you...

every time I introduce a dado head user to the spindle moulder it always amuses me the sort of epiphany they seem to experience when they discover just how poor a dado head is in comparison for tasks such as rebating, tenoning, etc..

Well I for one don't own a spindle moulder and my dado does a lovely job for me I'd like to see a spindle moulder dado the centre of a 4' by 2' board the within a minute rebate the edge...

We will never agree here I use common sense and you need to be shown or told thats the difference between us... let's leave it at that!

 

[Scrit]

Not at all I use my common sense to tell me if it's safe or not I don't need to read a book to tell me it's dangerous...

So how did you learn to drive a car then, by application of "common sense"? Common sense should also be telling you that if you have an exposed spinning blade 300mm (12in) in diameter turning at 2,850 rpm, i.e with a peripheral speed in excess of 44.7 m/sec (or 100 mph) , that anything dropped onto to that blade either accidentally or deliberately will quite probably turn into a fast-moving projectile or be damaged by the contact. But then "common sense" says that won't happen if you're careful, doesn't it?

(instead of that under-engineered, over-priced and over-hyped piece of tat peddled by Biesmeyer)

Can't agree there me old matey my Biesmeyer has never given me a moments problem, slagging off peoples equipment won't help you...

I've used the Biesmeyer. My comments are based on comparison with European sliding blade rip fences. The Biesmeyer is an improvement on the type of very second rate fence fitted to older Unisaws, Powermatics and the like but is a poor choice for solid timber work without making changes to it (such as adding a sliding auxilliary short fence for ripping) - and human nature dictates that having spent money on a shiny new toy they simply aren't going to do that. It is apparent from what you say that you've never used a properly-engineered European saw. If you had I doubt that you would be so defensive of your purchase. I say again, under-engineered.

every time I introduce a dado head user to the spindle moulder it always amuses me the sort of epiphany they seem to experience when they discover just how poor a dado head is in comparison for tasks such as rebating, tenoning, etc..

Well I for one don't own a spindle moulder and my dado does a lovely job for me I'd like to see a spindle moulder dado the centre of a 4' by 2' board the within a minute rebate the edge...

Two of the main uses for the dado head are to cut rebates and tenons - both jobs better and more safely performed on the spindle or even with a router. Even the radial arm saw with a dado head is safer.

The through housing cut you refer to as a "dado" is often a feature of lower-grade or fast work. Better quality work has traditionally used the stopped housing, a joint which can be cut with a router (hand or power) but not completely with a table saw. The through housing joint cut on a table saw is a job where it is difficult to provide adequate guarding and as I stated earlier a good wood machinist always tries to use the safest method available - in the case of the through housing that happens to be either a router with a jig or a radial arm saw with a dado head - both considerably safer than the dado head in a table saw. You seem to be hell bent on speed rather than safety - the two don't always go hand in hand

We will never agree here I use common sense and you need to be shown or told thats the difference between us... let's leave it at that!

The difference between us is a lot more fundamental. You seem to believe that "knock it out nail gun Norm" is a god and that his techniques are wonderful. I, together with a lot of others, look askance at his scant regard for safety, but then I'm pretty certain that I've read more accident reports than you have. Obviously I belong to a group with too much book learning, college training or experience to know any better.

Help! I know think I'm beginning to understand why people want a SawStop :lol:

Scrit

 

[Niki]

After reading all this discussion (and the others), I can just come to a conclusion that, if I (as an amateur and maybe small shop) don't have 10,000~50,000 Pounds to invest in woodworking machines, I should not touch this field or, simply work in the "Dark side" methods, meaning, hand tools that is very nice but I cannot get the same result, accuracy and time saving as with machine.

I think that amateurs does not want or, cannot invest in all the kinds of the "correct machine for the job" because they don't make the living of it. So, it's only normal that the amateur (and maybe the small pros) will try to use the maximum from the very few machines that they own by using some jigs that are not expectable by the law makers.

In every aspect of life there is some calculated risk. Almost every action that one makes during the day (and night) is somehow "risky" in a way. Even if one will be the best driver and drives exactly as per the laws all the time (and I know non), some track can cross the lane and...xxx.

I believe like Seaco that, one must use his commonsense or logic and decide if the operation is safe for him or not and, if it's not, how to make it to be non risky by planning ahead his position and using "things" that will keep him away from danger if something goes wrong.

(The passengers are boarding the airplane and hear "Ladies and gentleman, this aircraft is fully automatically and nothing can go wrong...nothing can go wrong...nothing can go wrong...wrong...wrong....wrong...).

When I read about a guy that lost his fingers on the Table saw or the router, I'm very sorry for him from one side but, from the other side, I'm asking myself (and I would like to ask him, face to face), what his fingers where doing near the blade or the bit. Sorry but, if the guy does not know that a 10" or 12" blade with carbide tooth can cut his hand even when touching it stationary, not to mention at 3,000 RPM, he did not use his commonsense and, if his fingers are in-line or so close the blade in such a way that they can slip and hit the blade, he did not use commonsense.
And, if one pushes a small piece into the router bit holding it only with his fingers, he did not use commonsense.
IMHO, the guard is there to guard against "UFO's", not to save ones fingers.

I strongly agree with Seaco that one must use his commonsense, logic or whatever you call it.
IMHO, Safety is in the Head.

I worked 10 years on a "homemade" table saw not only without guard but also without riving knife. I never had kickback but, I did cut my fingers a few times......while using the utility knife....

Respectfully
niki

 

[seaco]

Like I said we will never agree... :wink:

Well put Niki...