Proposition-Update

[DomValente]

Several members who have PMd me suggested that an update would be appropriate, so here goes.

As of today the shop is ours (verbally) but being a pessimist I'll cheer when the contract is signed.
I was also asked to be more specific about requirements,
Smaller items need no specifics, boxes, candlesticks etc. are there to be sold and to give people a reason to come in and browse, furniture alone would not cut the mustard, todays browser could be tomorrows buyer.
The type of furniture required must be unusual, retro is quite favourable in some circles, sorry but most brown, unless it's outstanding like a small Devonshire, is not selling, longcase clocks still sell as do small pews.
What is selling is contemporary, don't like the word, so modern.
One member sent me a photograph of a David Savage piece, I jumped at it, perfect. Anybody fancy trying Daniela's table, that would fly and very quickly.
dining tables, no thanks, because then you need chairs and everyone wants different fabrics or a table that is 3 inches shorter or longer, too much hassle.
This has to be an enjoyable experience for all without time constraints, that always makes for better quality and inventiveness.
Plasma screen stands and media units are favoured but definitely no"Victorian T.V. units"
It would be nice as much as possible to tell the client that their piece is unique and would only be duplicated at their wish, so the maker must tell me if he wants to make two of anything.
Console tables and sofa tables are in demand, I know, we've made four in six weeks.
To conclude, the way I see it , very few of us are krenovs. Andrew Crawford or David Savage but our work is still top notch, usually we will criticize it more than anyone else and seek plaudits amongst our peers and clients, but here is an opportunity to get the plaudits and the cash, regrettably in most cases nothing speaks louder than being paid for doing something you love and 9 times out of 10 something you have made which is sitting in a dark corner because you think it's "not good enough " will sell.
So, I say again don't be shy if you want to sell(confidentiality is guaranteed,unless you agree otherwise) PM or E-mail me, with if possible pictures.
It's a short time we are here, join the ride, you never know it might be fun, certainly better than what's on T.V.

Dom

 

[wizer]

Dom I agree with your ethos 110%. That is exactly how I would do it!

Good luck mate, I look forward to seeing the products you sell.

 

[DomValente]

I have been reprimanded for being dismissive of boxes, not my intention,when you see the likes of Beans boxes you can't be dismissive.

What I wanted to say and not very well, was that the furniture on it's own was not enough of a draw, you could look through the shop windows and see without entering, whereas boxes, scrolling and smaller items require closer inspection and once the clients are inside,well, the trap is sprung.
So we need both kinds of woodwork whether it be treen or sideboard.

Sorry

Dom

 

[woodbloke]

Dom - I have been discussing the proposal with SWIMBO over tea, who being newly qualified as an accountant has been regaling me with the legal downside as far as I am concerned. In common, I suspect, with many other folk on the forum with their own 'shops at home permission was granted by the 'powers that be' to construct it with the express proviso that it was to be used strictly for personal use only.
In other words, any items bought by you, from me, and then sold in the shop for profit would transgress the original planning permission requirements, the ramifications of which, particularly if the Tax man finds out don't bare thinking about.
I may be barking completely up the wrong tree and I hope I am but this is something that does worry me allot and I wondered what others felt about it and what they intend to do, or not, as is the case - Rob

 

[Anonymous]

Dom - I have been discussing the proposal with SWIMBO over tea, who being newly qualified as an accountant has been regaling me with the legal downside as far as I am concerned. In common, I suspect, with many other folk on the forum with their own 'shops at home permission was granted by the 'powers that be' to construct it with the express proviso that it was to be used strictly for personal use only.
In other words, any items bought by you, from me, and then sold in the shop for profit would transgress the original planning permission requirements, the ramifications of which, particularly if the Tax man finds out don't bare thinking about.
I may be barking completely up the wrong tree and I hope I am but this is something that does worry me allot and I wondered what others felt about it and what they intend to do, or not, as is the case - Rob

Rob,

Strictly speaking, I guess you and your wife are correct.

However, unless you go into production 40 hours a week, who's going to know? How is the local council going to find out that you're flogging a few pieces to a shop 100 miles away? Have you never done anything a little bit naughty in your life?

Whether or not you share your grubby secret with HM Revenue & Customs is up to you. Either way, they're not going to talk to the council about you!

I don't see it as any different to taking a few pieces to sell at a craft fair or car boot sale. Pocket the dosh and take the missus out for a nice meal.

Live dangerously! :lol:

Cheers
Brad

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Rob,

I reckon that there are two separate issues here. I'm no expert, but as regards the tax man, all the advice from all the experts on the radio whenever they have programmes about this is 'have a word with your local tax office'. I don't think that the tax position is particularly onerous (other than the fact that you'll have to pay tax on any earned income) but if you don't declare it and they find out, they will start delving and you'll be charged interest on any tax you should have paid. My wife does some work since retiring and is registered with the tax man as a sole trader and it's all quite straight forward. Also you can off-set some of your expenses so you might be able to buy some shiny new tools You would only be taxed on any profit you made so you would need to factor that into the price to ensure that it was worth your while. When it comes to tax, I always think that the worse thing is to do nothing and lie awake at night worrying about what's going to happen when the tax man finds out. If you do it properly, it's all quite simple.

The planning issue is a separate one. I reckon that thousands of people must be infringing some regulations or other simply because of the numbers who are now working from home and therefore using their homes for business purposes. The reality, of course, is that you won't be doing anything in your workshop different from what you are doing now - it's just that you will be getting (hopefully) paid for it. Suppose you could have a word with your planning people and see what they say - or just keep quiet and hope nobody snitches.

My inclination is that you should declare any earned income to the tax man but keep quiet about the planning issue :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[DomValente]

Hi Rob,

Good point, first of all, lets remember that this is an open forum.

I believe that personal use means just that, I may be wrong, as long as you don't have hoards of apprentices running in and out or pantechnicons delivering every day you are not causing a nuisance.
I think it unlikely that many here will be forming production lines running at all hours, we are in general talking about the occasional piece.
As to the tax aspect, we must all pay our taxes, but if you are uncertain of your position consult with your local office I have always found them to be most helpful and they will guide you.
The tax man is not an ogre, they need to collect taxes, it is their duty, but fear not HM Customs and Excise is not going to be battering down your doors at 4 a.m. unless you have a lot of loose floorboards and if you have, as a woodworker should be ashamed of yourself

Dom

 

[Lord Nibbo]

When I first read woodbloke's post about pointing out permissions my first thoughts were about copyrights i.e. pieces made using ideas or plans from magazines or bought plans. Is there an issue in this area?

 

[woodbloke]

Interesting... many thanks for the replies, will 'discuss' :roll: with SWIMBO later - Rob

 

[Anonymous]

Rob, realistically, people here are more likely to make a piece every 2 months that is good enough to well, rather than full-on production.

I think selling the odd item is OK without tax man isn't it? A bit like selling your unused tools etc.

 

[Paul Chapman]

I think selling the odd item is OK without tax man isn't it? A bit like selling your unused tools etc.

I don't think it's the same at all. You weren't selling your tools to make a profit, whereas Dom's venture is about selling stuff as a commercial business. If Rob was to, say, sell his elm cabinet that he is currently making and was to cost it out properly, including materials, labour, etc., it would sell for a lot of money (and it would be worth it ). Otherwise, what's the point? I think there is a danger here that some will see this as a bit of fun whereas really they should be looking at it properly and charging what stuff is really worth.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Anonymous]

Paul, your post sounds like you think someones trying to exploit people. I think your wrong, if the buyer and the seller reach a price which both parties are happy with then there's no problem.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Paul, your post sounds like you think someones trying to exploit people. I think your wrong, if the buyer and the seller reach a price which both parties are happy with then there's no problem.

That's not what I think at all. In fact I'm not really sure what you mean :? :?

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

Paul, your post sounds like you think someones trying to exploit people. I think your wrong, if the buyer and the seller reach a price which both parties are happy with then there's no problem.

Me too :? - Rob

 

[Alf]

I think what Paul might mean is everyone needs to ask a fair price ('cos it wouldn't be fair on the "pros" if they were being constantly undercut by the giggling hobbiest who's just thrilled to be paid at all) and thus if it's a fair price, it's possible it's going to interest the tax man a little more than flogging the odd chisel here or there.

But of course he may not mean that at all. :lol:

Incidentally, with all those kitchen-related outlets in the vicinity, someone might want to think about such boring but saleable items as chopping boards and other kitchen paraphernalia...

Cheers, Alf

 

[Paul Chapman]

I think what Paul might mean is everyone needs to ask a fair price ('cos it wouldn't be fair on the "pros" if they were being constantly undercut by the giggling hobbiest who's just thrilled to be paid at all) and thus if it's a fair price, it's possible it's going to interest the tax man a little more than flogging the odd chisel here or there.

Yes, that's partly what I meant, Alf, thanks :wink: However, this debate was partly about things like tax. I know a lot of people who have got themselves into a real pickle by not facing up to the realities of income tax and hoping the problem will go away. Inevitably they find, several years down the line, that they are faced with a massive tax bill. My advice would be to cost your work properly, declare it for tax and there won't be a problem. Paying lots of tax isn't bad - it usually means you are earning lots of money

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[mr]

Funnily enough Alf I shall be finishing off some of those boring items this afternoon. Re the tax positiion, registering and working as a sole trader is simple enough. Dom will obviously be charging fair / reasonable prices in his shop and will also be filling out his tax returns as appropriate. Any one who supplies him and doesnt do the same is making a rod for their own back. Tax is a pain in the a*$e but mostly unavoidable so as long as it's approached in the right way then I see no problems at all. Obviously it's easier to get started for those of us who are already self employed but its no great obstacle to others either.
Cheers Mike
edit as Paul says anyone paying a lot of tax is in either one of two positions, a) caught out for previous non payment or making lots of money. I don't see any great panic

 

[DomValente]

Thank you mr couldn't have phrased it better the tax side of things is up to each individual to tackle according to the law of the land.

The buying and selling will be done on a strictly," how much do you want for that piece " and ," no I can give you more because I can make a lot on it", or, "no that's too expensive". I am not here to rip anyone off, everyone will have access to my sales prices, I need you and it wouldn't be in my interests to cheat anyone, you talk to each other and I would soon be vilified.
I am now 55 years of age and reckon there are a few good years left, I am no longer a high flier and don't want to have millions in the bank but when this goes ahead I can promise that every effort will be put into the venture to ensure that we all profit and you never know you may get the recognition you deserve.
I've got to say this " You have to be in it to win"

Dom

 

[Gill]

I hadn't considered the implications that producing goods for retail might have on planning permission for the workshop in my garden. It's a good point to raise. There's part of me that's a little bit worried and there's another that says, 'stop mithering - you already spend so much time in the workshop that if anyone was going to object, they'd have already done so'.

I'm also reflecting on those people who run catering businesses from their kitchens. Their house must only have planning permission as a residence. The same must be true of insurance brokers and software engineers I know who operate from their conservatories. I wonder why their accountants haven't made adverse observations.

 

[Paul Chapman]

I hadn't considered the implications that producing goods for retail might have on planning permission for the workshop in my garden. It's a good point to raise. There's part of me that's a little bit worried and there's another that says, 'stop mithering - you already spend so much time in the workshop that if anyone was going to object, they'd have already done so'.

I think you are right, Gill. Working from home is now so widespread that I don't think councils would have the resources to enforce any planning infringements unless you were causing a serious nuisance to neighbours.

Cheers :wink:

Paul