Precise work vs. Speed of Work

[MikeW]

We were having some discussions in the shop a little while ago. The topic became one concerning precision of work and speed of work.

My contention with the boys was the way to develop speed was through repetitive precision. Their contention was the way to become precise was through speed. That being further defined as more activity, the more something is repeated, the natural consequence was increased precision.

While the boys and I evidently have different philosophies in this regard, it was a good discussion. I in no way claim to do superb work. I would like to think I do the best I am capable of at the moment. Not perfection, but as precise as I can for the work at hand. And I apply that to the boys--they do good work.

So I was curious as to how others viewed this question. Just how does one gain increased speed or proficiency?

Take care, Mike

 

[PowerTool]

So I was curious as to how others viewed this question. Just how does one gain increased speed or proficiency?

Take care, Mike

Personally,I think the answer is the same to both questions - practice!
Repetition increases speed as you become more familiar with the process;also,you become more accurate as you understand more about what you are doing and how the tools and materials behave.

Good question though,Mike - bit of a "chicken and egg" situation 8)

Andrew

 

[ByronBlack]

It also comes down to muscle-memory, specially in the case of hand-work, the more you do something correctly, the more agile and accurate you become - much like playing the guitar or leaning to type.

 

[Colin C]

It also comes down to muscle-memory, specially in the case of hand-work, the more you do something correctly, the more agile and accurate you become - much like playing the guitar or leaning to type.

What he said but do it correctly is also very important as we have the same problem with people that come to are club from some where else ( Karate club ).

They have train for years but find it hard to do as we do because they have learned to do things with some bad habits, to put it a nice way :roll: .

We need to learn it at a slower pace until you dont need to think about what you are doing, you can look at the job in hand and get on with it.
If that make sense :roll:

 

[Joel Moskowitz]

This is a very important question because these days I see more and more complicated procedures being advocated to give beginners advanced results. Instead of saying here is a decent hand method, "practice" and in a few weeks you will have it on down, all sorts of shortcuts, mechanical aids, and complications are introduced. Partly this is done I suspect so that at the end of the weekend class everyone goes home with something nice to show off. But I think it's hurtfull long term to the hobby and more important to the profession. We make the beginning procdures so involved that I think a lot of people are turned off by the complexity of the procedures and in some cases the specialized gadgetry. Sharpening of course is at the top of the list. all sorts of guides and gauges are commonly recommended to beginners - not just learning basic technique. And of course since the basic technique is rarely taught you can't get up the learning curve and sharpening becomes an intimidating time consuming procedure that people try to avoid instead of what it is, a two minute break between woodworking operations to catch your breath.

 

[engineer one]

as usual mike you start one off don't you???? :lol:

as an engineer somewhere out there i think it is a subject that requires knowledge of what you are doing and why.

if you are a professional, then you need to combine speed with accuracy, whilst to many amateurs, the answer is the process which delivers satisfaction etc.

accuracy comes with a better knowledge of the job in hand, plus practice with the tools, and then comes speed which is to do with being happy that your work is accurate and satisfying.

if you are producing the same thing all the time, then speed is the essence, if however you are using many of the same techniques but in a number of different ways, ie you are not making the same things all day,
some of your proficiencies will enable you to work faster, but the lesser used ones take longer. just like using these b****y machines :? :?

sawing is a skill which needs great practice to allow you to cut straight lines quickly, as well as a sharp wenzloff i think :lol: :lol:

i mean how fast can the bear cut with one of your saws? :twisted:

surely the answer is a vague as any other, but experience allows one to work faster, and applied skill ensures accuracy.

how's that for sitting on the fence :lol: :twisted:

paul :wink:

 

[dchenard]

This is a very important question because these days I see more and more complicated procedures being advocated to give beginners advanced results. Instead of saying here is a decent hand method, "practice" and in a few weeks you will have it on down, all sorts of shortcuts, mechanical aids, and complications are introduced. Partly this is done I suspect so that at the end of the weekend class everyone goes home with something nice to show off. But I think it's hurtfull long term to the hobby and more important to the profession. We make the beginning procdures so involved that I think a lot of people are turned off by the complexity of the procedures and in some cases the specialized gadgetry. Sharpening of course is at the top of the list. all sorts of guides and gauges are commonly recommended to beginners - not just learning basic technique. And of course since the basic technique is rarely taught you can't get up the learning curve and sharpening becomes an intimidating time consuming procedure that people try to avoid instead of what it is, a two minute break between woodworking operations to catch your breath.

No argument from me whatsoever ccasion5:, but be warned that some people around here take umbrage at these kind of statements... :-k

DC

 

[mahking51]

mean how fast can the bear cut with one of your saws?

Depends on whether he's had his pizza......
I'll get me coat!
Martin

 

[Ian Dalziel]

Mike…..I go taught this years ago and it stuck with me…think of it when driving a car.

IC…..as a 15-16 year old when you are in your parents car and you see them driving you think that looks easy…I can drive….until they try it.

CC….they take some lessons and they can then drive….but they have to think of every move they are doing. gearchange….watch mirrors……and they’ll make mistakes.

UC……been driving a few years they don’t have to think about what gear their in every thing happens as it should driving becomes natural, but if you sit them next to their instructor they’ll get nervous and drop back to being CC and make mistakes…..

The zone…. Years of experience …..completely competent and comfortable no matter who’s watching or what they are doing.


This has stuck with me over the years….

you can have a good wind up and laugh with the boys and ask if they are in the zone yet.


I

 

[Paul Chapman]

My contention with the boys was the way to develop speed was through repetitive precision. Their contention was the way to become precise was through speed.

I think your way has to be right, Mike. If you are doing work in a way that is not precise, then doing it faster will not make it more precise - probably the opposite, in fact. Learn to do it right, then do lots of it - that way you will achieve speed and precision, IMHO. However, there is probably a limit to the speed you can work before precision starts to suffer.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[garywayne]

I believe one should take there time and do something correctly. Then, try to improve there speed combined with accuracy.

One should not sacrifice quality for speed,(IMO). Have some pride.

 

[Lord Nibbo]

Who first said "Practice makes Perfect"? it still applies Others have already mentioned. It was also said "More haste less speed" which I suppose could relate to the same thing.

The only other word I could add is "Familiarity" which in this context means the same as practice.

I remember the first ever time I picked up a router, I was very apprehensive about it, now I don't even think about it. Which makes me quote the old saying "Familiarity breeds contempt" so don't try to rush it, it might bite you back when you least expect it. :? :wink:

 

[bugbear]

If you set speed as the "fixed" and practise to improve precision, you'll make nothing but scrap until you develop enough precision.

If you set precision as the fixed and practise to improve speed, all your practise pieces are of useable quality.

That sounds less wasteful to me.

In an amatuer context, one may NEVER perform enough repetition to develop both (*), in which case the latter course is the only one that actually gives you finished products!

BugBear

(*) or alternatively, the intervals between practise are too long

 

[CHJ]

...snip...
you set precision as the fixed and practise to improve speed, all your practise pieces are of useable quality.

That was the mantra throughout my 5 year apprenticeship, I was one of the lucky ones to still do one, and the tools I made are in use in my workshop 50 years latter. The use of machines was taught but using the same was not allowed until you had proved that you could produce an item with hand tools. Believe you me hacksawing and filing an instrument makers 2" G clamp out of solid 5/8" steel plate with a 2 thou. tolerance limit teaches you to be careful how you use a file and the emery paper, likewise on the perverse side not using a die to cut the threads until you had mastered turning them seemed strange at the time.

After completing the apprenticeship, some would say it was totally wasted as I became management fodder 18 months after completion. But I know that throughout my working life the skills or ethos learnt have been invaluable, and dare I say it if you look at the results of my application of a new hobby in wood turning in the last couple of years it still has meaning.

Sorry, that came out long winded but I do think Bugbear nailed it in that sentence.

 

[Anonymous]

I have taught a few people to play drums over the years and they usually say I want to play like phil colins or elvin Jones or something. Yeah right :roll: I always say you just need to forget about trying to copy someone elses style, learn a few basic building block skills (this puts people off as this seems mundane not glamorous and cool :roll: ) Learn to keep time, develop your body clock etc and your style will emerge in due time.
I think its the same with wood working skills, you learn simple fundemental basics hopefully from someone as knows what theyre doing and practice and practice and practice, just as with drums/guitar etc slowly at first even if it seems tedious. Even some tuition video's of guitars slow down the action so as you can see better whats happening. And even the best muso's still practice every day to maintain that intuitive flow that Ian mentioned. I think its daft to look at a janes krenov piece and think as a beginner I want to build one of those :roll: .
I think the other very important thing is to LOOK closely at what your doing or have done, especially with a magnifying glass, this has served me well for sharpening etc also in other trades eg when I used to set up screens for silk screen printing. Ther is too much emphasis on complex tools/jigs etc, the old joinery books (for amateurs at least) never had massive amounts of complex stuff, just simple basic kit's :wink: :lol: :lol:

 

[aqualex]

I think repetition by itself merely speeds up your work flow, not the individual (sub) tasks. You'll end up needing less time to check and recheck yourself, making sure you're still doing IT right. So you'll increase confidence, not directly precision.

Most reactions tend to suggest that speed and precision are opposites, for any given person putting more accent on one of them will come at the cost of the other one.

So, while you can be too fast (ie sloppy work), can you ever become TOO precise? ;-)

Best whishes,
Alex

 

[Anonymous]

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[Paul Kierstead]

Sharpening of course is at the top of the list. all sorts of guides and gauges are commonly recommended to beginners - not just learning basic technique.

People learn in different ways, and find different things "easy". For example, some people will find a 10 step highly deterministic procedure to be easy, because they are very procedure oriented. Those people will have an extremely hard time if you start out with instrctions like "feel the bevel on the stone", because innately they distrust this sort of thing and need to work into it. For other people, their eyes will totally glaze over at step 3 or so, and they will be fustrated to no end with such complicated procedures, but will very happy with more fuzzy instructions and tend to trust more. If you are one type or the other, it is easy to see the other as being inferior. Wildly generalizing, the first type tend to see the second type as "inaccurate" and will probably claim it does not give repeatable results. The second sort tends to see the first sort as inflexible and bound by their procedures. Of course there are lots of other varieties as well.

Another big factor is patience. It may be "wrong", but lots of people today lack the patience to dedicate a few weeks to something they think should be simple. I think they can learn this patience, but it takes time to devlop patience. This is hardly just woodworking. How many golfers spend countless dollars buying rubbish to fix their slice instead of just spending the time practicing (probably a instructor would help too) and fixing it? We have to ease them towards contemplative, careful and patient work; they aren't going to embrace it right away.

In a way, Mikes disagreement with his sons is a example of this, where his sons are "get it done, get better later" and mike is "be careful, speed will come with time". Of course this isn't the only factor there, but it is an interesting idea.

And from left field, there are those skills where slowing down doesn't seem to help. Sawing for example; I haven't found "going slow" helps much, because mostly if you start out bad your mostly screwed anyway. This is probably one of the things that turn some off sawing, because it is difficult to get good results by just being careful and edging up on it.

 

[Joel Moskowitz]

Paul,
I agree with everything you say. And certainly better teachers can articulate steps like putting a chisel bevel down on a stone better than most people can. I was lucky my teacher could teach a class of total beginners to freehand sharpen in the first class after about 40 minutes. THat is his skill explaining stuff so it worked. But I think the literature and the methodolgies taught now increasingly emphisis arcane steps and getting the right gizmo than training ones hands.

 

[engineer one]

actually this reminds me of the old production line argument.

when an apprentice, the practice was always to allow faulty cars to go through to the end of the line and be fixed outside later. this meant if an item was not in stock, then a whole line of cars could be outside waiting for for instance starter motors.

also at that time, esso built oil refineries that needed to work at 98%
to make any money. suddenly after the six day war, everybody had to do rethinks, because demand fell. now most refineries work at much lower break even, but more importantly, production line companies paricularly in the car business, found that it was actually cheaper to stop the production line and fix it there than have to pay overtime and other storage charges.
in addition, it brought to the uk and us industry "just in time deliveries"
that the japanese had used for years.

interesting to note that the "godfather" of the japanese motor industry is recognised not as old man honda, but an american called demmy who invented the production delivery method they used, and the yanks ignored for years, because they would have had to modify their existing systems where as the japanese started with new factories.

the british excuse at the time was the strange post war economics of
exporting to gain sufficient materials for uk sales, and the tax laws that did not allow new machinery to be written off very quickly. (no politics, just facts honest! :roll: )

anyway the reason for the allegory is that when producing things in bulk there is a tendency to think that failures can be economically remodeled afterwards at an economic rate, and this i think is untrue.

accuracy and expertise bring their own speed.

paul :wink: