Paul Sellers video

[Jacob]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQPcHLcyRe0

Always a pleasure to watch Mr Sensible up to his tricks. Though it's a long video for such a simple wheeze.

 

[Woodmonkey]

Thanks for sharing I found that useful. Boy, was his pencil sharp, I wonder if he did that freehand...

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

It just so happens that I drilled my bench for dogs just last week. I have an open frame bench, which had traditional square dogs with wooden springs, but now space is tight, I wanted to put storage under the bench, so no more through dog holes. I routed two tracks into the bench top where the two rows of dog holes were, plugged the holes and set in some new beech boards into the routed tracks, essentially giving me a new bench top. Refurbished my tail vice and drilled 3 rows of 3/4 inch stopped holes in the bench top and matching holes in the vice. I haven't made wooden dogs yet, I'll get round to turning some hardwood ones next week. Brush pole does not fit 3/4 inch holes, but these do.

These are absolutely brilliant and in many instances, might do away with tail vices altogether. If I was building a cabinetmakers bench on a budget, I would get these and only one shoulder vice would be needed. I think almost any holding solutions would be covered.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Strewth they are expensive! Who needs them? Answer; nobody really; you can do it much better with a few odds and ends of dowel etc.

Thats what I like about Mr Sensible - he isn't trying to persuade everybody that everythings is difficult and you need to buy a set of gadgets, DVDs etc

 

[woodbrains]

Strewth they are expensive! Who needs them? Answer; nobody really; you can do it much better with a few odds and ends of dowel etc.

Thats what I like about Mr Sensible - he isn't trying to persuade everybody that everythings is difficult and you need to buy a set of gadgets, DVDs etc

Hello,

There is nothing to stop anyone making their own from wood; I intend to make some additional ones this way. The adjustable nature of these is great, though as fixed wooden ones might not fit all the dog holes, if spacing was different, either intentionally or otherwise. Don't forget, they negate a vice, so not expensive really.

Mike.

 

[bugbear]

The only downside to using a face vise and its dog is that the workpiece is unsupported over the open jaws. This can be a problem with thin work.

A traditional European tail vise, or wagon vise avoids this problem, but is more work to fit.

Swings, roundabouts, choices, choices.

EDIT; nice collectible Preston (no less) router he was using! And a modern(ish) Stanley 5061 marking gauge, as recommend by our own DC.

BugBear

 

[Tim_H]

As someone thinking about retro fitting a Record vice with a dog and making some inexpensive dogs I thought this was really useful.

I liked the fact that he fitted the dog and made the spring dogs in real time, it made you feel that you could do it in an evening rather than some of the more speeded up, here's four hundred pieces of wood I power planed, cut to size and pre drilled earlier off screen stuff that is the staple of most videos.

Horses for courses really, but worked for me.

Other methods of holding pieces of wood are available!

 

[Jacob]

Strewth they are expensive! Who needs them? Answer; nobody really; you can do it much better with a few odds and ends of dowel etc.

Thats what I like about Mr Sensible - he isn't trying to persuade everybody that everythings is difficult and you need to buy a set of gadgets, DVDs etc

Hello,

There is nothing to stop anyone making their own from wood; I intend to make some additional ones this way. The adjustable nature of these is great, though as fixed wooden ones might not fit all the dog holes, if spacing was different, either intentionally or otherwise. Don't forget, they negate a vice, so not expensive really.

Mike.

Yebbut it always strikes me as such a pity that when someone is talking about simple practical ways of doing things the expensive alternative of gadgets crops up. A lot of people think gadgets are what you must have, and are deskilled and ripped off in the process.
OK so the borderline is a bit indistinct between useful/essential tool on the one hand, and stupid gadget on the other but I think these vertitas things are definitely in the second camp!
Just say no to gadgets, buy wood instead.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I might be sticking my neck out with this but on balance Jacob, I think possibly the large majority of folks on this forum get that your perspective is a more traditional one in respect of the whole gadgets discussion.

For me it's not black and white, but a continuum where on one extreme end you literally have flint made arrow tips ie the very early tools...all skill and materials that are literally lying on the ground. At the other end you have ludicrous gadgets like CNC where other than feed the (usually man made) board in, you're a computer user!

We're all somewhere on that sliding scale. Most of us nowhere near either end of course. Personally I have a lot of respect for Mr Sellers and his methods but I also love my sharpening gadgets. I think with me I tend to like the gadgets that replace boring and repetitive tasks but prefer traditional methods if I actually enjoy the work. So hand planing for example, who doesn't love a gossamer thin shaving and the feel of a well fettled tool (ooh err Missus!). But sharpening a really dinged chisel where you know your fingers will be killing you in a few minutes.......no thanks.

Much like Miss World when asked what she wants......world peace would be my response and failing that......at least "thread" peace :lol:

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

Is there anything new that is truly new or just refinements of methods of old (for example, pick up one of Wearing's books on woodworking gadgets, etc.). For me, this is where Paul Sellers fits in: he has realized his earnings are far easier to instruct/pass on his decades of knowledge rather than remain a barely known worker bee. My wife bought me his set of DVD's & book several years ago as a present, and I've found much of what he presents, as an easier method of doing some of what I learned through happenstance.

My father passed away in 2004, and he was a carpenter for most of his working life. He had no reservations in taking any tool and altering it to do whatever the current job at hand was. Approach to a job is different when your earnings are tied to correctness and speed of productivity.

As now just a hobbyist that can indulge himself with the latest gadgets, for a time I found that satisfying, but sooner or later a realization is reached that the gadgetry is not woodworking, but one of dozens of ways to woodworking. Matters not if you use O1, A2 or PM-V11: what matters is actually using the tool and not just accumulating the tools.

 

[Trafalgar]

Hello,

It just so happens that I drilled my bench for dogs just last week. I have an open frame bench, which had traditional square dogs with wooden springs, but now space is tight, I wanted to put storage under the bench, so no more through dog holes. I routed two tracks into the bench top where the two rows of dog holes were, plugged the holes and set in some new beech boards into the routed tracks, essentially giving me a new bench top. Refurbished my tail vice and drilled 3 rows of 3/4 inch stopped holes in the bench top and matching holes in the vice. I haven't made wooden dogs yet, I'll get round to turning some hardwood ones next week. Brush pole does not fit 3/4 inch holes, but these do.

These are absolutely brilliant and in many instances, might do away with tail vices altogether. If I was building a cabinetmakers bench on a budget, I would get these and only one shoulder vice would be needed. I think almost any holding solutions would be covered.

Mike.

Robt. Wearing shows pretty much the exact same thing in wood in his jigs and fixtures book. I can't imagine why a woodworker would buy something like this. A couple of F clamps and a selection of different thicknesses of battens would work as well or better, if not a coffee can full of nails and different thicknesses of battens.

Lee Valley is brilliantly tapped in to the psyche of those who would rather buy than make or improvise simple jigs and fixtures. One can't even plead lack of time. Less than an hours' worth of work thicknessing a handful of battens would yield all the stops one would ever need in a lifetime of woodworking.

 

[Rhossydd]

I can't imagine why a woodworker would buy something like this.

Because they're well made, useful and save you time.

 

[woodbrains]

Strewth they are expensive! Who needs them? Answer; nobody really; you can do it much better with a few odds and ends of dowel etc.

Thats what I like about Mr Sensible - he isn't trying to persuade everybody that everythings is difficult and you need to buy a set of gadgets, DVDs etc

Hello,

There is nothing to stop anyone making their own from wood; I intend to make some additional ones this way. The adjustable nature of these is great, though as fixed wooden ones might not fit all the dog holes, if spacing was different, either intentionally or otherwise. Don't forget, they negate a vice, so not expensive really.

Mike.

Yebbut it always strikes me as such a pity that when someone is talking about simple practical ways of doing things the expensive alternative of gadgets crops up. A lot of people think gadgets are what you must have, and are deskilled and ripped off in the process.
OK so the borderline is a bit indistinct between useful/essential tool on the one hand, and stupid gadget on the other but I think these vertitas things are definitely in the second camp!
Just say no to gadgets, buy wood instead.

Hello,

As BB pointed out above, dogs on a vice leave gaping chasms beneath the work, and tail vices/wagon vices overcome the problem, but vices have a cost and there is the difficulty in fitting these. Those Veritas planing stops, or a shop made alternative, negate a tail vice and leave no unsupported areas on the workpiece. It is even arguable that not clamping during planing is advantageous. I don't think the Veritas ones are madly expensive for something that will be in constant use. They also can be used in my tail vice, which is useful for planing the joints flush on frames etc. they ar less than 6 mm tall, so very thin stock can be planed and the movable posts will fit all the dog hole spacings, which vary between the longitudinal and transverse directions. For this convenience I was happy to pay the asking. The adjustability cannot easily be done in wood ones and certainly not in the thin sections these stops come in. My bench was built in 2001, and aside from the recent refurb, which wasn't necessary except to allow drawer boxes to be placed on the frame for storage, only cost me £250 including both vices. I think I can indulge a bit more money on some convenient work holding now! It is a 7 ft solid beech top cabinetmakers bench, with massive sapele under frame.

Mike,

 

[Trafalgar]

I can't imagine why a woodworker would buy something like this.

Because they're well made, useful and save you time.

They're the height of dude woodworking. I'd like to understand how anybody could have gotten along without ALREADY having a set of battens they could clamp (or tack) across or along their bench wherever they needed to place them. Bizarre.

Thickness plane rock maple or other hardwood battens at 3/16" 7/16" 11/16" and 15/16" These, obviously, accommodate planing workpieces with planned finished thicknesses of 1/4", 1/2", 3/4", and 1" If you need others just make them. Tack 'em down as needed or clamp them across the bench. Good planing exercise for the relatively uninitiated or just run them through a machine.

Done. Next.

 

[Gerard Scanlan]

Pauls Sellers' videos are watched by woodworkers around the globe. His approach is to show how you can get started with only a few tools and yet make quality work. Of course there are other ways to do things. That hardly matters here. I believe that Jacob and Tony are making fair points. But I agree with Bob too. If there is an area that you struggle with and you find something to help you get it right there should be no shame in that. However there is a big difference between a sharpening gig an extremely fancy dog system that looks like it is going to create more problems that it will solve. The beauty of a dog made from wood is that if you skid cross it you won't need to sharpen you plane or scraper blade (with or without a gig) if you bang up against a metal dog you'll spend ages getting rid of that nick in your blade before you can get back to making stuff. Speaking of which....

 

[woodbrains]

I can't imagine why a woodworker would buy something like this.

Because they're well made, useful and save you time.

They're the height of dude woodworking. I'd like to understand how anybody could have gotten along without ALREADY having a set of battens they could clamp (or tack) across their bench wherever they needed to place them. Bizarre.

Hello,

Contending that there are other ways of doing things is a feeble argument. Of course there are, but everyone knows, there has never been a perfect solution to everything. There has been and always will be alternatives which some will prefer over others. Anyone could just nail battens to the bench for a convenient stop. And if that person nailed something to my bench, he might find himself being run through the planer! It is horses for courses. Anyway, nails are not free and a lifetime of nailing stuff to a bench will require more spent on them than these stops will, never mind the umpteen new bench tops. They will earn their keep in my workshop many times over, I own no tools which don't, so buying these was a truly considered investment.

Mike.

Mike.

 

[woodbrains]

The beauty of a dog made from wood is that if you skid cross it you won't need to sharpen you plane or scraper blade (with or without a gig) if you bang up against a metal dog you'll spend ages getting rid of that nick in your blade before you can get back to making stuff. Speaking of which....

Hello,

Wasn't sellers vice dog metal? These Veritas ones are aluminium and very low profile, hitting them with a tool is unlikely and would not damage it.

I used shop made wooden dogs for years, with ash springs to keep them at the height set, but they needed through holes to allow them to be pushed through. I have to have stopped holes now, so ones that can be accessed from the top only have to be used. Sellers ones stick up 3/4 inch, too high for many applications. I doubt a dog of that design could be made 5.5mm high and be removable without breaking a fingernail. The single hole dogs I intend to make will be even simpler than his. A round rod with a square of birch ply on top, slightly undercut to assist holding stock down and getting a purchase for lifting them out.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

......However there is a big difference between a sharpening gig an extremely fancy dog system that looks like it is going to create more problems that it will solve. ........

No probs there'll be a Mark II version along in due course. :lol:

 

[Trafalgar]

Hello,

Contending that there are other ways of doing things is a feeble argument. Of course there are, but everyone knows, there has never been a perfect solution to everything. There has been and always will be alternatives which some will prefer over others. Anyone could just nail battens to the bench for a convenient stop. And if that person nailed something to my bench, he might find himself being run through the planer! It is horses for courses. Anyway, nails are not free and a lifetime of nailing stuff to a bench will require more spent on them than these stops will, never mind the umpteen new bench tops. They will earn their keep in my workshop many times over, I own no tools which don't, so buying these was a truly considered investment.

Mike.

Mike.[/quote]

Fine, don't tack them clamp them across. In a lifetime of bradding down battens one wouldn't lose a tenth of the wood in a benchtop as one removes in one hour when tapping a top for dog holes. It's a silly argument on that basis. In no way would you have to replace "umpteen" benchtops.

Dog holes become worn, elongated, and unusable and of course this happens first to the ones in the positions you most favor.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Clamping takes time and is cumbersome to the point where they are often in the way of the work. A pair of cramps cost more than these stops and are often in use for clamping up projects, unless we buy a dedicated set for bench holding. Are you seeing the flaw in your argument? Dog holes may remove material from the bench, but not destructively so, like continually inserting and pulling nails into a benchtop which will need replacing after some years. The multiple posts on these planing stops spread the pressure and reduce, or prevent elongation. They are well designed and simple and effective. I'm not sure how another contributer here can describe them as a 'fancy dog system'. System? Really?

Mike.