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flanajb

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Am looking at getting a workshop air filter and all the talk about 1 micron / 5 micron is making my brain fry. What I am trying to work out is how much dust is produced which is less than these sizes when planing / sawing and sanding ?
 
Can't help with expressing e.g. "dust from Oak sanded with P80" in microns, but the following was originally posted on FOG and was interesting enough fro me to copy and tuck away - not sure of the provenance, but I think it was from one of the mods. so it must be accurate... :wink:

Pete.

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Eye of a Needle - 1,230 microns
Human Hair  - 40 to 300 microns
Oil Smoke  - 0.03 to 1 micron
Fertilizer - 10 to 1000 microns
Tobacco Smoke - 0.01 to 1 microns
Coal Dust - 1 to 100 microns
Beach Sand - 100 to 2000 microns
Mold Spores - 10 to 30 microns
Pollens - 10 to 1000 microns
Typical Atmospheric Dust - 0.001 to 30 microns
Grain of Table Salt - 100 microns
Wood smoke particles - generally less than 2.5 microns

You can't see objects smaller than 40 microns with the naked eye.
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so from what you have posted I would have expected wood dust to be > 1-5 microns. If "Wood smoke particles - generally less than 2.5 microns " then I suspect that virtually all dust will be caught by your extractor or your workshop air filter.

Unless your saw blade is so blunt it burns its way through the timber!
 
The extractor catches the dust that it can. Equally on many machines (especially the SCMS) they chuck out a heck of a lot of dust that does not get picked up by the extractor.
 
the sailent point is that it is the very fine dust , ie less than one micron, which is the real health hazard as your nasal mucus and lung mucus will catch most of the larger stuff to be coughed out like brown snot(lovely mental image apologies to anyone who was eating :lol: )

the very fine stuff gets right down in the alveoli and causes cancer, emphsema and allsorts of other badness.

This is why there was so much hoo ha about MDF - the dust isnt inherently worse for you than other wood dust of the same particulate size, but sawing mdf does generate a heck of a lot of very fine dust.

(though the worst offender in that feiold is cutting concrete or anything else with a high silica content)
 
It's an interesting question nevertheless Flanajb, although i've never seen any data. I'd imagine it depends quite highly on the material and the cutting conditions.

It's common to see owners of Pentz style cyclone systems report that only of the order of a table spoon or two of visible dust ends up in the collection tray after the cyclone exhaust after months of use. Most draw the conclusion that all the rest has been dropped out into the chip bin by the cyclone.

If we take it though that at least a significant proportion of the dust produced is invisible i.e. below 40 microns in size - the question that we're left with is does it actually end up?

Does the cyclone drop it into the chip bin, or is it caught in the filters? The stuff that ends up in the collection tray that gets talked about is actually visible, so it's quite a bit larger than what we're talking about.

Or is the visible stuff in the tray mixed with much finer stuff which if agitated gets into the air and becomes invisible? This seems fairly unlikely (at least in quantity - unless the cyclone has trouble dealing with that particle size), in that very fine dust would surely be pulled into the filters long before it would make the tray?

If all the very fine stuff was going into the filters you might expect them to blind up very quickly - and they reportedly do not. But maybe the quantities are very small. Either that or it's already been dropped out into the chip bin.

Either way it sounds like there are significant quantities of very fine (invisible) dust about in either the chip drum, the filters or maybe the collection tray - meaning that both presumably require careful handling.

I wonder has anybody ever done the work to establish what the particle size distribution is in the waste from the various types of woodworking machine on different materials, and especially how much invisible very fine <40micron dust is produced? Not to mention where it ends up.

There's probably a lot to be said even with a good cyclone and filtration system for ducting the exhaust outside when and if you can.....
 
Hmm. Think there's a bit of synchronicity about! :D I took a quick look into the excellent (so many members, such a wide range of input) Sawmill Creek forum in the US after making the above post.

What should be at the top of the list but a 2005 thread on dust particle size distribution and the relative effectiveness of the some of the differing types of cyclone type dust system commercially available in the US that somebody had just found and added a post to: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=22907 There's also some feedback from guys who built Pentz systems.

Bill Pentz in a 2005 post in this thread answers at least in outline the question of particulate size distribution in wood dust collected from machines:

'Still, for those considering these units (some other models of cyclone discussed in the thread) I again clarify that these are not efficient fine dust separators, so are best used without filters and should be exhausted directly outside. Pumping lots of fine dust into filters quickly ruins filters from over cleaning and the high silica (glass) content in wood rapidly cutting up our filters quickly turning even good fine filters into sieves that pass most of the finest dust. Likewise, the cost and time to buy then modify one of these often exceeds the cost to build or buy a far more efficient separating cyclone based on my better separating design.

OSHA gathered sawdust from hundreds of large woodworking shops, and measured that dust. They found on average woodworking dust is about 85% heavier sawdust and chips and about 15% fine airborne dust. Airborne dust consists of small dust particles that do not immediately fall out of the air. Most airborne dust is sized 30-microns and smaller, with 30-microns being about one third the diameter of a human hair. We all know from working with MDF and doing some operations like power sanding that we sometimes generate close to 100% fine dust and other times like when planning we generate near zero fine dust. So the amount of airborne dust we make will vary considerably.

Going after that 85% heavier dust is known as “chip collection” and means collecting the same stuff we would otherwise sweep up with a broom. Going after the remaining 15% finer airborne dust is known as fine dust collection, something most hobbyist tool, dust collector, and cyclone vendors do not provide in spite of advertising claims. Sadly, vendors like this cyclone maker test with heavy chips to make incredible separation claims, yet decades of testing shows cyclones based on this basic design provide about the same 85% separation by weight that we get from a far less costly trashcan separator.

This remaining 15% of the finest airborne dust poses serious short term and long term health problems. We can quickly become sensitized to some of the more toxic woods if we have too much exposure. That sensitization can lead to serious immediate reactions such as severe asthma attacks and worse. We all also develop long term damage from too much fine dust exposure. Our bodies do a good job clearing dust down to about 10-microns, but have trouble with finer stuff getting lodged in our tissues. Particles sized 1-micron and smaller pass directly into our blood and can get lodged anywhere. Over time the chemicals and toxins in that dust, plus the silica (glass) will cause almost all to get ill. At typical hobbyist exposures this may take a decade or two, but we have over forty years of insurance data and medical tests that show all are affected with about one in eight developing serious problems. Sadly this often occurs so late in life that many do not tie their respiratory problems to this exposure.

Dust sized 10-microns and smaller is invisible without magnification, creating a big problem for hobbyist woodworkers. Unlike most large woodworking facilities that blow the finest dust away outside, we mostly trap this fine dust inside where it often builds to dangerously unhealthy levels even in shops that do minimal woodworking. It takes six months or more for this dust to dissipate. During this time it gets broken down into finer particles plus gathers extra toxins as it is broken down my molds, mildews, bacteria, yeasts, etc. I know from personal experience this buildup can be dangerous, especially when working with the more toxic woods like walnut, red oak, cocobolo, rosewood, etc. I thought I was well protected because I used the “best” advertised cyclone and “best” oversized 1-micron filter. After landing in the hospital, I did not believe my new respiratory doctor, so had my shop tested. Although praised for such a clean looking shop, my shop after over three months of no woodworking still failed its fine airborne particle counts from just turning on my cyclone with doing no woodworking. My near new fine filter stored up and freely passed most of the fine dust.

This cyclone you modified is near identical to almost all other current hobbyist cyclones and the one I bought. They are all built on plans from the New York Dept. of Labor, Division of Hygiene Engineering published in August 1962. This cyclone design has its roots in a basic agricultural cotton cyclone built with very high internal turbulence to break sand and dirt from cotton fiber. When used with woodworking these agricultural cyclones do an excellent job of “chip separation” breaking the fine dust from heavier and dropping close to 100% of the heavier sawdust and chips into a collection bin while and separating near 0% of the airborne dust particles that it blows right through the cyclone. In short, these cyclones provide almost exactly the same 85% separation efficiency that we get from a trash can separator lid. Instead of just blowing this fine dust directly into the outside air as done by large commercial woodworking cyclones, Delta built their cyclones to blow the fine dust into very open filters that freely pass the airborne dust. These big filters catch the chips and sawdust if the dust bin gets full because cyclones with a full bin blow everything right through. The big commercial units don’t have this problem because they have automatic bin emptying, or sensors that shut down the cyclone when the bin becomes full.

Even with all the changes from my Cyclone Modifications pages this basic cyclone design will still pump nearly 60% of the 30-micon and smaller particles right through. With this fine dust full of silica (glass) that trees use for strength, that dust loading will soon cut and tear its way through fine filters leaving them wide open and of little use to protect your health from the finest unhealthiest dust. Worse, unless you use a particle counter or pressure gauge to know when it is time to change filters, you are not going to see any problems until well after the finest dust levels have become dangerously unhealthy. That is why I strongly recommend venting these cyclones directly outside with open filters and no air returned into your shop.

My own testing showed my cyclone design was over 90% efficient at separating off these fine particles before the filters. This greatly increased filter life, reduces cleaning needs, and provides much better long term health protection. Recently I received the early testing results from a major medical school. They provided some nice praise for my design saying it was more than twice as efficient as any other hobbyist cyclone they tested showing better than 90% separation on the 30-micon and smaller particles.

bill'

One thing this material maybe suggests re my post prior to this one is that the essential factor that determines how well the differing cyclone solutions work is probably their performance on very fine invisible dust. It highlights as well why there's sense to exhausting outside when you can, and not relying on filters...
 
That was a very informative posting. Not sure about others, but it does seriously concern me what my health will be like in 60 years time. I am 40 at present, but it makes you think.

I try to wear my 3M dust mask all the time, even when I am not using any machinery.
 
big soft moose":16at9zk5 said:
.....
(though the worst offender in that feiold is cutting concrete or anything else with a high silica content)

Spot on. One of my clients (a hospital doctor) was telling me about a guy who presented himself with breathing difficulties. 'All' he had done was cut up some patio slabs over the weekend without a mask. As the Doc said...'a dead man walking'.
 
RogerS":14cjc6u0 said:
big soft moose":14cjc6u0 said:
.....
(though the worst offender in that feiold is cutting concrete or anything else with a high silica content)

Spot on. One of my clients (a hospital doctor) was telling me about a guy who presented himself with breathing difficulties. 'All' he had done was cut up some patio slabs over the weekend without a mask. As the Doc said...'a dead man walking'.
That scares me. I did ground working when I was younger :(
 
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