Panel saws

[wildercreative]

Hi All
I am in the market for a new saw and am having trouble making a decision and indeed finding the right machine.
I have been working on a Mini Max sc 3ws for the last 4 years and have had no reason to complain with it.
I have just bought out my partner and part of the deal was he got the saw...
As i have limited space i cant fit in a massive 3200mm sliding saw and am having trouble finding the right small machine.
I want a better build quality than the Mini Max but the same foot print.
The Altendorf WA6 and WA80 both look great and also the Felder K700.
But all pricy...
My budget is about £4000.
I have been looking at the roblands
What can any one tell me about the ssecondhand market (who are the best dealers) and what positive thing have you got to say about different machines in this band
Thanks
Dominic

 

[Calpol]

I can't really advise you on anything but we had a Felder K975 where I used to work with the extra digital bits and I loved it! We also had the AD741 Planer from the green range you're after and it was top notch...

As for second hand stuff the one I'm most aware of is Scott & Sargeant, plenty stock it seems

 

[JonnyD]

I bought my panel saw secondhand. For your budget of 4K you should be able to get a decent machine. A machine bought from a dealer is usually going to be more expensive than a machine sold privately or bought at auction. With a machine from a dealer you should get the piece of mind that it has been checked over and serviced and you should get a warranty.

My machine is an egurko ortza with a 2.6m slider and is quite compact and is basically a copy of the altendorf but available at a much keener price.

cost was about 3k from these people http://www.woodworking-machinery.co.uk/ they also specialise in altendorf and roblands and service was good from them.

Other names to keep an eye open for other than those mentioned are martin, panhams, casedie, but these along with the altendorfs will often be with 3.2m sliding tables so you may be better off looking for secondhand felders or roblands.

Cheers

Jon

 

[ProShop]

You don't mention what part of the country your in, so I can't recommend you to a good s/hand dealer.

I'd forget the Altendorf WA6 you mentioned and their clones imho.

If you want a s/h Altendorf then I can recommend the F45, there's a few around at the moment some are a bit less than your budget too.

If your looking at a Felder (forget hammer imho) remember you'll need at least a 2800mm slider plus the parallel fence to cut 8 x 4 sheets.
Starts to get expensive.....

You've just missed a nice nearly new Technomac which would have been right up your street.

 

[ondablade]

A lower cost option from the Felder stable might be a Hammer K3 Perform, or other model: http://www.ukhammer.co.uk/gb-en/products.html It's in or around the right price range, and i've heard said it compares very well to Minimax.

Hammer have a discount programme on the go right now too.

It's not as solidly built as an Altendorf or even a Felder (it probably won't handle the same levels of abuse or throughput), but is much much cheaper, seems to perform very well and i concluded it should be fine in a one man shop with relatively low throughput compared to a production shop that could have two guys horsing sheets through it day after day.

I've ordered one on the basis of the very good feedback i got from some local kitchen/bedroom furniture guys using them. I looked at one of the Roblands, but decided against it on grounds of quality.

I guess the space a sliding table saw needs is largely a matter of the size of sheets you want it to handle - but there are smaller/shorter slider versions of the K3 available too....

ian

 

[OPJ]

With a machine from a dealer you should get the piece of mind that it has been checked over and serviced and you should get a warranty.

Jonny makes a very good point.

If you're in the position of employing others and you buy from an auction say, it is then up to you to get the saw up to the standards of the current HSE regs - most importantly, braking and guarding. As already mentioned, there are dealers around and one forum member (a few months ago) had only good things to say about Timber Team in Leicester.

G&M Tools are also good for second-hand machinery but, I don't think they offer machinery with a full service...?

I don't understand why the H&S laws are so 'relaxed' for anyone registered as a 'sole trader' :? but, I'd still consider abiding by these rules even if you are on your own.

 

[JoinerySolutions]

I don't understand why the H&S laws are so 'relaxed' for anyone registered as a 'sole trader' :? but, I'd still consider abiding by these rules even if you are on your own.

Because when used properly, as many of us 'sole traders' do, the cutter blocks and such are perfectly safe. It is only when people try to aid grip to a cutter in a Whitehill block by inserting a shim of sandpaper or chew up the locking nut with the wrong spanner that accidents occur. As for putting your fingers in a blade, cutter or such, well then you are not paying attention to the job in hand and have no business using the tools. If you do not know how to use the kit safely you should not be in the job.
HSE are basically there to apportion blame to the employers who can be fiscally penalised. One place I worked the 'machinist' ran his thumb through the spindle moulder, sheer laziness in setting the power feed up, it fell to me to clean up the mess and finish the job. His first words to me after the event,awaiting the ambulance, was " why does it always happen to me?" He had lost some finger parts years before in a similar event.
Legislation has made things more expensive for the small business but has done nothing to stop lazy people have accidents.
While I appreciate you wish to stay intact and healthy, Olly, common sense needs to be promoted, you obviously have it, though it seems in short supply elsewhere due to the un-enlightened legislation we have got.
Sorry turned out a bit rantified but the HSE bit really gets my wick

 

[ondablade]

There's been lots good i'd say in standards, especially around dust control and machine/tooling design. But as you say JS there's much that contributes little and does nothing to get past the issue of doziness.

Much like speed and drink enforcement on the roads. Nobody is suggesting lunatic speeds or driving boozed are OK, but it inevitably ends up being driven by political correctness, clowns wanting to throw their weight around or enhance their power, the claims culture and jobs for the boys. Not to mention the enforcers quickly becoming driven by quotas, and going for the soft targets that deliver nothing very much in safety improvements.

Meanwhile the serious drink drivers/nutters/gormless do as they always did...

That said it's very hard to make (especially ) repetitive work on woodworking machines safe - with the best will in the world it's so easy to do something stupid. Especially when the boredom and impatience set in.

It's not by accident (over here anyway) that some insurers are refusing employer liability for woodworking. Not by accident either that they don't care about sole traders....

ian

 

[RogerS]

.....

I don't understand why the H&S laws are so 'relaxed' for anyone registered as a 'sole trader' :? .....

Ummm..I think you'll find that the regs apply to self-employed just as much as they apply to employee/employer.

 

[OPJ]

That's what I always thought though, Rog, until someone else confused me a short while ago... Of course, the general rules apply without question. But, for some reason, I'm still not certain that the laws on 'braking' are relevant if you're a sole trader... :? Don't quote me on that! I'm currently reading the HSE site to try and confirm this but, I seem to be looking in all the wrong places! I can't find a definitive answer.

 

[ondablade]

If it's anything like over here (Ireland) it seems to be more a case of interpretation on the ground by inspectors - who basically are not all that bothered about sole traders, but very concerned about covering their collective asses.

Injured employee cases do tend to end up in court and questions get asked, while i guess sole traders just get on with it.

I guess a case where the authority was accused and found guilty of not 'safeguarding' a sole trader would soon shake that up... :wink:

 

[RogerS]

Olly

Here is the definitive answer (!) and straight from the horses mouth. Below is the reply from HSE to my question regarding self-employment and HSE rules re woodworking machinery.

Thank you for your enquiry regarding the use of woodworking machinery.

There will be requirements placed upon all employers and self-employed persons who use work equipment to ensure that they comply with the main requirements of the Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations (PUWER) 1998. In respect of self-employed workers, the guidance states the following:

Self-employed people's duties

If you are self-employed you have a duty to ensure that work equipment you provide for work or use at work complies with PUWER 98.

Specifically in relation to the braking equipment that should be provided on work equipment, Regulation 15 of the Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations 1998 states:-

(1) Every employer shall ensure that, where appropriate, work equipment is provided with one or more readily accessible controls the operation of which will bring the work equipment to a safe condition in a safe manner.

(2) Any control required by paragraph (1) shall bring the work equipment to a complete stop where necessary for reasons of health and safety.

(3) Any control required by paragraph (1) shall, if necessary for reasons of health and safety, switch off all sources of energy after stopping the functioning of the work equipment.

(4) Any control required by paragraph (1) shall operate in priority to any control which starts or changes the operating conditions of the work equipment.

The supporting guidance to the above as applied to woodworking machinery states:-

Woodworking tools run at very high speeds. Sometimes workers approach the tools forgetting that they are running down. Sometimes, because of the stroboscopic effect of the tools, workers believe that they have come to rest when they have not. Operators can also switch off the power to the tools and leave the machine to run down unattended. All of these possibilities put workers at risk.

The accompanying Approved Code of Practice (ACoP) which has been approved by the Health and Safety Commission and has special legal status and applies Regulation 15 to woodworking machinery states:-

You should fit braking devices to reduce the rundown time of cutting tools on woodworking machinery where the risk assessment shows that this is necessary. They are considered necessary for the following machines: circular saw benches; dimension saws; powered and hand-fed cross-cut saws (unless there is no risk of contact with the blade during rundown); single-end and double-end tenoning machines; combined machines incorporating a circular saw and/or tenoning attachment; narrow band saws; re-saws; vertical spindle moulding machines (unless fitted with a manual or foot-operated brake); hand-fed routing machines; thicknessing machines; planing/thicknessing machines; surface planing machines.

Where they have been identified as necessary, braking devices should be fitted as soon as possible. In the case of circular saw benches, dimension saws, powered and hand-fed cross-cut saws (unless there is no risk of contact with the blade during rundown), single-end and double-end tenoning machines and combined machines incorporating a circular saw and/or tenoning attachment this work should be completed no later than 5 December 2003. For narrow band saws, re-saws, vertical spindle moulding machines (unless fitted with a manual or foot-operated brake), hand-fed routing machines, thicknessing machines, planing/thicknessing machines and surface planing machines the work should be completed no later than 5 December 2005. For all other machines the work should be completed no later than 5 December 2008.

Braking devices are not considered necessary when:

(a) machines have a rundown time of 10 seconds or less;

(b) the effect of braking could be detrimental to the integrity of the machinery;

(c) machines have been built in conformity with a harmonised European standard (and a reference to the standard has been published in the official journal of the European Communities), where the standard does not require braking devices.

Reference: L114 'Safe Use Of Woodworking Machinery : Provision And Use Of Work Equipment Regulations 1998 As Applied To Woodworking Machinery : Approved Code Of Practice And Guidance [PUWER]' (ISBN 97807176 16304, priced £8.00)

The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) has also published the following woodworking information sheet; WIS38 'PUWER 98 : Retrofitting Of Braking To Woodworking Machines [Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations 1998]' This information sheet is available free of charge for a single copy, and may also be viewed and printed from the HSE website:

www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis38.pdf

Further woodworking information sheets may also be viewed and printed from the HSE website. An index of those available is on the following HSE website:-

www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/woodindx.htm

 

[OPJ]

Thanks very much indeed for that, Rog!