new w650 damaged

[cjc101]

Hi all,
I took delivery of a new charnwood w650 today. On unpacking it I found 2 pits or dinks in the cast top.
I am going to ring charnwood tomorrow for their advice, but I wondered if these pits are present on all cast tops or, like for LCD screens and dead pixels, there is an acceptable limit for these manufacturing defects?
Is the saw usable with these defects (they are well out of the way of the blade but cuts over 200mm will travel over them) and a partial refund would be acceptable, or does the saw or cast top need to be replaced?
I'll put some photos and charnwoods reply tomorrow.
Seems a shame as the rest of the saw looks very good and well made on first inspection.
Cheers,
Chris

 

[carlb40]

From what i have heard about charnwood, they will no doubt send a replacement machine out. No point paying for damaged goods, especially new. You might aswell have the replacement not a partial refund IMO.

I haven't seen anything like it on cast iron tops before.

 

[stuartpaul]

Unfortunately my experieince of Charwood was very different and suffice to say I was the owner of a 650 for a little over 3 weeks!

Your paying good money for a machine and in my opinion there shouldn't be any significant imperfections in a cast iron top at all. Mine had a 'dip' of over 2mm acroos the whole top and this was considered 'within tollerance' regardless of the fact that this meant you couldn't cut at 90 degrees without packing underneath the piece being cut!

Only you know what you're prepared to accept in terms of tolerance and 'compensation' but don't let them fob you off with poor excuses. Their quality control should be better.

Good luck.

 

[cjc101]

Hi all, thanks for the super quick replies.
Great news from me. Charnwoods customer service was excellent. An engineer called Stuart agreed the damage is unacceptable and is going to arrange for a new top to be sent to me on Monday.
Cheers,
Chris

 

[carlb40]

Good news then

When you get the old top off, put it on your bench and check the top for flatness again. I had a similar issue with my axi ts200, but by top was out by 2mm. It turns out the top is flat , the actual frame has been welded badly. My way around it due to axminster not stocking the main table top anymore, was to pack between the frame and the top.
Not ideal but hey ho.

 

[cjc101]

hi all,
I thought it best to keep this thread up to date both for my records and for anyone else searching the forums for similar problems.
charnwood said they'd deliver the new top on Tuesday 19th March. I rang on Tuesday to find the delivery time and they said they didn't know which address to send it to, my delivery address or billing address, so they hadn't sent it.
Wednesday 20th the new top arrived but it had slipped out of it's packaging and was lying on the bottom of the van on the cutting surface. Not ideal but thankfully the only damage was surface scratches. Once waxed they'll not be noticeable.
at the weekend I got the chance to swap the two tops.
With the top off I measured arbour run out at 0.04mm at the extreme edge of the arbour. A far as my googling goes I conclude that is right on the upper limit of acceptable. I measured blade run out at 0.2mm just below the teeth. Again, probably just on the upper limit of acceptable.
With the top removed it's is pretty obvious the internals (motor, blade, trunions etc are well out of square with the cabinet.
With the new top fitted with the screws finger tight I tried to square the top. After 2 hours trying the best I got was 2mm from the front to back of the blade to the right hand mitre slot. the problem was in this position the front of the blade was touching the insert! So in order to allow the blade to spin I had to allow another mm for clearance so actually the best measurement possible was 3mm front to back of blade.
With the screws removed I positioned to top correctly with the blade in the middle of the insert throat and parallel to the mitre slot and the screw holes are 3 to 4mm out of line. I can cut sheet accurate to 1mm with a hand held circular saw. I was buying a table saw to be even more accurate not 3 times less!
Finally, the holes for the insert on the new top are in a different place to the first top so it cannot be screwed down. Not the end of the world as I can make a zero clearance insert, but I want it to work first before I start fitting my own mods!
I'm going to call charnwood at 9 so watch this space for updates.
Couple of questions. 1) can a saw be used safely 3mm out of parallel? My feeling is not.
2) what alternatives would people recommend if I was to send this one back? Next on my list is the axi but I don't want to pay twice the price (including the sliding tray and extension tables) for the same saw (as I understand it they are both based on the same import) and end up with the same problems. in reality I'd probably have to look second hand if this table isn't suitable.
Cheers,
Chris

 

[cjc101]

Hi all,
Update from charnwood. The trunnion is adjustable a well as the top so I'll check that out tonight. I did look at the mounts yesterday but didn't see any way to adjust them.
More updates to follow.
Cheers,
Chris

 

[Webby]

thanks for updates ...watching this one closely :shock:

hope it all works out

Dave

 

[carlb40]

Have you got any pics? It might help us help you. I think with my axi ts200 i spent half a day leveling / adjusting everything. Seems a shame they can machine the tops flat, then ruin it by welding the frames out of square

 

[cjc101]

thanks for the support guys.

I've got some photos but can't upload from my phone. I'll post tonight from the computer if I can.
Cheers
Chris

 

[cjc101]

Hi All,

Very quick update with photos.

I just want to say - I mean no harm to Charnwood for reporting this. I realise they have a reputation to uphold on these forums and I am deliberately not making sweeping statements or presenting my opinion. I am just reporting what has happened so that others are informed in case similar circumstances occur. Charnwood's customer service has been adequate throughout, so no complaints there.

However I am concerned that others may not have taken such care and time setting up the saw and could have used it in this potentially unsafe condition. I have paid a lot of money for something that remains unused 2 weeks after it was delivered. I bought the saw to fit a bespoke kitchen and was delayed for a week and then went back to my horrible hand held circular saw which has not given me a finish I am happy with. If I had bought a different table saw I may have been finished by now.

The photos:

First up, credit where its due the saw was nicely packaged when it arrived:

And this is it as it was on delivery:

Close ups of the cast top damage. The holes vary in depth but are roughly 0.3 - 0.7mm deep:

with the top removed I took a photos of the internals. This was intended just to show what the insides look like as I bet not many people ever get a chance to look. However, with hindsight, I can now see how far out of square the trunnion is with the cabinet:

After 2 hours this was the closest I got the blade to square (touching at the very tip closest to the camera, about 3mm at the back:

And the insert holes do not line up:

 

[cjc101]

OK so now to today's photos:

I loosened the 4 big 13mm screws (2 shown at the bottom of the photo, 2 hidden at the top) and after about an hour this is as good as i could get it:

with the top back on this translated to this:

and this last one really highlights the extent of the problem (the ruler should be square to the square):

my suspicion is the there is a problem with this rail (the two painted faces should be touching with no silver in the middle):

It looks like it has come out of the slot but my hunch is that's because the other mount can't adjust enough to allow the motor mount to twist.

 

[cjc101]

Final update for tonight - and this is where things get a little odd. I phoned the engineers at Charnwood at 5pm tonight and before I'd properly explained the problem I was asked to return it. When I tried to discuss it further I was asked if I still had the packaging and if so collection would be arranged.
So I am left a little confused tonight. I don't know if that means return for it to be looked at and repaired, or looked at and my money returned or replaced or what. I wasn't asked to package the extra equipment so its a worry now. To be honest, I'm leaning toward sending it back and looking second hand now anyway...
I'll phone again tomorrow and see what's going on.
Cheers,
Chris

 

[onlinename]

Thanks for keeping us updated, I was thinking to buy the W619 (the smaller version of yours) but after many reviews online I will be most likely purchasing the Dewalt DW745 just to be on the safe side.

I hope it all works out with you, I look forward to reading more.

 

[cjc101]

Hi all,
Charnwood have offered to repair or replace but to be honest I'm not feeling very confident this saw is ever going to be as accurate as I want.
I'm thinking of returning this and buying the axi AW10BSB2 instead. It looks better made in the pictures with a better fence but does it warrant the £500 extra?
Cheers
Chris

 

[carlb40]

I see from the pics you are trying to square the blade to the table edge? You need to square the blade to the mitre slots, if you want cuts to be square.

 

[cjc101]

Thanks Carl,
You're right, all my measurements have been to the right hand mitre slot. The square held to the table edge and cabinet edge were just for the photos (I checked and the mitre slots were square to the edges and square to each other)
Cheers for all your help over the past couple of days.
Chris

 

[Webby]

Chris

Any news ??

 

[carlb40]

Chris

Any news ??

Chris started another thread not long after his last reply in this one. He is now going to go an axi store to check their saw out

 

[cjc101]

Hi webby,
Charnwood collected the saw on Thursday. They said on the phone they couldn't discuss a refund until they looked at it.
I'm looking for an axi second hand. I bought the saw to tailor some kitchen cabinets and I've done it now using a hand held circular saw so there's less urgency.
more updates later in the week.
Cheers
Chris