Mitre Gauge Review & Advice Sought - Post 'Head to Head'

[RWoody]

I've already posted a couple of comments on the main site, but are still 'awaiting moderation'. I also wonder anyhow, if that was the right place to put these questions, because it's not part of the forum as such. I'm also acutely aware of TIME constraints (only having 1 DAY left to decide now), so I wonder if I might be rude and post this here. Apologies for double posting, as it were, but I hope you sympathise with my position:

RE 'Head to Head Mitre Gauge Reviews'

"A very interesting article – and I know it was originally posted 2 years ago, but it’s still very relevant today.

"My question is, and I hope someone can help fairly quickly, as I’m looking at buying the Osbourne EB3 off the back of this excellent review (precious few unbiased/vested interest reviews out there!) and being new to professional woodworking I need to clear up a technicality:

"I have older machinery (a circular saw table and Mini Max Pro 32 bandsaw) and wondered if the grooves on the machined tables themselves vary much in width, as one is 11.8mm and the other 12.7mm on my two machines. Would, therefore, the EB3 fit these? I can’t see how it would fit both, snugly, unless there is some sort of manual adjustment?

"I’d really appreciate your feedback. I MUST make a decision in 2 days [now 1 day, guys!] There is a time limit you see I won’t go into it now.

"I need to add, that the saw table work surfaces are fairly small, at 37 x 37cm and 35 x 42cm respectively. This may or may not make a difference, but I obviously need to know before I take the plunge and buy one of these. Because of the way these devices work, one of the Incra mitres might be better suited to smaller saw beds? I just don’t know, as I’ve never seen these in the flesh, especially as they are manufactured in the States, so viewing one locally is difficult "


So folks, your valued opinions would be welcome on this. I have wondered if I could in fact inject a bit of ingenuity, and ADD a suitably sized rail to the underside of the existing one on the EB3, if it won't fit as hoped. This could be held in place by butterfly nuts for example, being careful not to foul the slide mechanism, and then add a thin piece of ply/MDF of equal thickness to the added metal strip on the EB3, to the table bed surface, so that everything's still 'flush'. I hope I've explained that well enough?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Mike.C]

I presume that when you say 11.8mm and 12.7mm you are talking about the depth and not the width. What are the exact sizes (depth and width) of the slots in both tables?
The only trouble with fixing something to the bottom of one of these gauges is you have to be careful that you do not stop the adjusters from taking up any slack, but if your slot are the right width 19.05mm (or 3/4" in old money) gluing a thin piece of something in the groove to bring it up flush with the table is a good idea.

Cheers

Mike

 

[RWoody]

Thank you for your reply, Mike.

I suspect that I didn't make things abundantly clear, for there may be a slight misunderstanding here, as it seems as though you thought I'd be adding the wood, for height, to the base of the gauge itself. What I actually meant was a metal strip, of the slot dimensions, to be added to the bottom of the gauge/guide. The wood, would be for the actual work surface; I mean the whole area of the saw table surface. Hence whatever thickness metal I was to add to the bottom of the gauge, I'd match with some ply/MDF to the work surface bed (i.e. the top). I don't know if I've explained that any more clearly?

The dimensions of the respective machine works surfaces are as follows:
Circular table saw with 35 x 42cm bed, has a guide groove of 11.8mm width (I did mean width, not depth) and a depth of 6.52mm (the 42cm dimension being the one to include the guide groove);
Bandsaw table with 37 x 37cm bed, has a guide groove of 12.7mm (again width, not depth) and a depth of 4.59mm.

So with this further information I hope you can glean enough to know both what I'm thinking and trying to achieve, as well as therefore knowing if this can be achieved with the Osbourne EB3? It's sometimes difficult to explain the simplest of things on one's head, let alone something such as this. Even so, if we were face to face, I'm sure it would become immediately clear. A picture equals a thousand words after all

Thank you kindly in advance, Mike. I really hope you can help sufficiently for me to make the right decision. It seems that my workshop construction, including dust extraction system, and fitting all the machinery and tools into a 10' x 14' work space, has been exceedingly time-consuming. So many bespoke things, and trying to work around what I have, makes the whole job so much slower too. How I envy those with large workshops, in solid-walled buildings, instead of my shed-cum-workshop which I've insulated and plasterboarded, still with styrene windows to be converted to double glazing for sound retention etc. Anyway, I digress!

 

[marcros]

I've already posted a couple of comments on the main site, but are still 'awaiting moderation'. .

This seems odd- that doesnt normally happen.

 

[RWoody]

I agree marcros, this post and all before are added immediately, but not the other one.

Here's a direct link, though you won't be able to 'see' the 'awaiting moderation' for obvious reasons. Nevertheless it'd be interesting to know how it appears to you.

Here you go: https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/articles/he ... views.html

 

[Mike.C]

Thank you for your reply, Mike.

I suspect that I didn't make things abundantly clear, for there may be a slight misunderstanding here, as it seems as though you thought I'd be adding the wood, for height, to the base of the gauge itself. What I actually meant was a metal strip, of the slot dimensions, to be added to the bottom of the gauge/guide. The wood, would be for the actual work surface; I mean the whole area of the saw table surface. Hence whatever thickness metal I was to add to the bottom of the gauge, I'd match with some ply/MDF to the work surface bed (i.e. the top). I don't know if I've explained that any more clearly?

The dimensions of the respective machine works surfaces are as follows:
Circular table saw with 35 x 42cm bed, has a guide groove of 11.8mm width (I did mean width, not depth) and a depth of 6.52mm (the 42cm dimension being the one to include the guide groove);
Bandsaw table with 37 x 37cm bed, has a guide groove of 12.7mm (again width, not depth) and a depth of 4.59mm.

So with this further information I hope you can glean enough to know both what I'm thinking and trying to achieve, as well as therefore knowing if this can be achieved with the Osbourne EB3? It's sometimes difficult to explain the simplest of things on one's head, let alone something such as this. Even so, if we were face to face, I'm sure it would become immediately clear. A picture equals a thousand words after all

Thank you kindly in advance, Mike. I really hope you can help sufficiently for me to make the right decision. It seems that my workshop construction, including dust extraction system, and fitting all the machinery and tools into a 10' x 14' work space, has been exceedingly time-consuming. So many bespoke things, and trying to work around what I have, makes the whole job so much slower too. How I envy those with large workshops, in solid-walled buildings, instead of my shed-cum-workshop which I've insulated and plasterboarded, still with styrene windows to be converted to double glazing for sound retention etc. Anyway, I digress!

RW, considering most table saws are made with mitre slots of about 19.05mm x 9.52mm yours are very small. Are the tables made of cast iron or aluminium and have you thought about having the grooves recut to the above size?

The cheapest way would of course would be to do it the way you suggest, but in the end I do not think you are going to be happy with it.

Cheers

Mike

 

[RWoody]

That's a good idea Mike. I didn't think of that! As you say, I probably wouldn't be happy with the makeshift idea I've put forward, even though it might work. In the long run I do think it'd be worth having the slots milled out to the 'correct' size. At least than I'd have both machines the same, and it'd just be a matter of switching the guide from one machine to the other.

My only concern being that of sufficient depth of metal to allow not just widening, but depth too. However, I guess the depth won't be a great deal different, so not a huge amount cut away. What is the depth of the guide arm that fits into the groove?

Once I know this I shall know how much needs to be milled out, and whether or not there is sufficient depth to maintain strength in the table bed.

Thank you for this idea. I look forward to hearing from you again, hopefully the last time on this particular topic.

 

[The Bear]

RWoody
What type of table saw do you have, it sounds pretty small. Not necessarily a problem in itself but the EB3 is pretty big. Bare in mind it sits one side of the blade, it only has half the table supporting it. I have a small bandsaw and would not use it on that as the table would be too small for it (not that it fits the mitre slots on that anyway).
Mark

 

[RWoody]

Hi Mark,

Many thanks for your input too. I had been feeling a little more optimistic, in light of Mike's comments, though it'd still require a fair amount of work to achieve..... but now, on balance, and considering everything else too, I feel that perhaps it's just going to be a little too much. Too many variables; a fair amount of work, even cost if I have to pay a machining company, as my metal-working lathe isn't a large, commercial one which would be needed to mill something of that size; and just basically hassle.

Your point though, Mark, about the size of the guide versus my machines, was my other concern, when I originally came to the forum, and was what I'd raised as a question at the outset. Now you've cast doubt on this too, for which I'm grateful.

I therefore think that on balance I'll pull out of the running on making this purchase, and maybe make up something myself. As long as it slides without any 'play', and is long and strong enough to hold/grip wood, than I think I can achieve my goal here. I could couple it with something like the GemRed Digital Angle Finder, from Axminster tools - or something similar. It'd be much cheaper this way, though a little work to achieve. But no more work, I feel, than I'd otherwise have had, if I'd gone down the Osbourne EB3 route, with all the modifications needed etc.

Any comment on these thoughts and alternative suggestions? I do feel I'm getting nearer to a satisfactory solution though - and thanks to your good selves, Mike and Mark.

Cheers!

 

[Mike.C]

That's a good idea Mike. I didn't think of that! As you say, I probably wouldn't be happy with the makeshift idea I've put forward, even though it might work. In the long run I do think it'd be worth having the slots milled out to the 'correct' size. At least than I'd have both machines the same, and it'd just be a matter of switching the guide from one machine to the other.

My only concern being that of sufficient depth of metal to allow not just widening, but depth too. However, I guess the depth won't be a great deal different, so not a huge amount cut away. What is the depth of the guide arm that fits into the groove?

Once I know this I shall know how much needs to be milled out, and whether or not there is sufficient depth to maintain strength in the table bed.

Thank you for this idea. I look forward to hearing from you again, hopefully the last time on this particular topic.

About 9.5, so about 3mm to remove on the table saw.

On the other hand Mark has got a very valid point in that with the fence (especially extended) the EB3 is quite big. You maybe better off buying a Incra V27 or the new V120 and making your own smaller fence.

Cheers

Mike

 

[marcros]

I agree marcros, this post and all before are added immediately, but not the other one.

Here's a direct link, though you won't be able to 'see' the 'awaiting moderation' for obvious reasons. Nevertheless it'd be interesting to know how it appears to you.

Here you go: https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/articles/he ... views.html

ah, one of the articles. never commented on there before- the same info was on a thread too, which is what I assumed you meant.

 

[Peter Sefton]

Because of the way these devices work, one of the Incra mitres might be better suited to smaller saw beds? I just don’t know, as I’ve never seen these in the flesh, especially as they are manufactured in the States, so viewing one locally is difficult "

We are not local to you (Worcestershire) but you are always welcome to come to the workshop or one of our open days to take a look at the Incra for yourself. I use the V27 in the workshop not as advanced as the more expensive ones in the range but still very accurate.

Cheers Peter

 

[RWoody]

Thanks for your offer Peter, but as you say you're not very local to me; and to make a special journey just to see one of your Incra mitre gauges, even with a workshop open day, is rather extravagant, in terms of costs and time. However, I'll maybe see if I can combine it with another trip - though at present no idea what ;(

I must also say, that having looked at the new V120, as opposed to the V27, I really do think it's a very practical, even more appealing alternative to the former. Size wise it's perfect for my smaller tables, but there is still the issue of the groove guide width and depths, and whether the Incras will fit, or can be made to fit. Do you have any suggestions in this direction? I mean, do you offer any kind of 'milling' service, which would enable a bespoke secondary metal strip which can be attached to the existing rail guide, in a fashion as to allow quick removal between my machines? Just and idea........I so wish there was an easier solution to this! :x

 

[marcros]

What about a hardwood runner? Failing that filing a piece of aluminium shouldnt be too onerous- imperial stock of 1/2" x 3/8" is probably the nearest starting point. With care, you could do it on the router table (aluminium or wood).

I was actually having a look last night at my bandsaw, with a view to putting my incra gauge on to it. Like you, the mitre slots on my bandsaw ("standard") and table saw (smaller), so the chance of using it interchangeably on both would require expanding the table saw slots. I questioned to myself how useful a super accurate gauge would be on the bandsaw, and hence probably will dedicate it to the table saw- i wouldnt plan to cut mitres on the bandsaw, and the factory issue gauge is towards the better end of factory issue ones. I couldnt think of a specific where I would want to cut a super accurate angle on the bandsaw, instead of the table saw or RAS.

 

[RWoody]

Very valid points marcros. I guess I am thinking 'ideally' with regards to swapping a super-accurate mitre gauge from one machine to another. It's just nice to have more options, even though, as you rightly say, things wouldn't need to be as accurate on a bandsaw. However, at the moment, apart from a standard fence, I have no device at all, on my bandsaw, that enables me to cut mitres. So although I may not need a super-accurate mitre guide on it, it would be nice, nevertheless, to be able to use, or double up on an existing tool if possible - and if it's super-accurate too, then it's a bonus :wink:

But yes, I could very possibly make up a hardwood slide; even a plastic (nylon) one would be good, from a longevity vs self-lubricating slide goes. Umm, food for thought. The aluminium route might also be a distinct possibility - as would brass perhaps. Using a router to achieve this is a good idea. I must admit I hadn't thought of that. Alas I don't have any metal-cutting router bits, so something else I'd need to invest in. But great idea!

Still a fair bit of thought and work ahead, but thanks to you guys, I sort of feel a lot more as if more options are open to me. As I'm not used to working with all the tools and machinery I have yet, I'm obviously not yet 'programmed' to know and expand my imagination. It is, after all, the whole reason one invests in machinery and tools like this. Make good use of them, certainly.

So now I'm either going to have to think about adapting the lovely Incra V120 that Mike mentioned (I'll have to check on the price too, as I'm getting low on my budget now!) to enable use on both machines; or adapt the Incra to work with my table saw only, and make up a device for the less accurate/demanding bandsaw and use the (I've sourced a cheaper, potentially more versatile one to the GemRed I've mentioned earlier) alternative 200mm Trend Digital Angle Finder/Ruler (an amazing £14.95 inc on Amazon) to get accurate angles.

This is quite a journey, as the cliche goes..... :?

 

[marcros]

i think that aluminium will rout ok with standard router bits.

 

[RWoody]

Standard router bits? I have a fairly expensive ones from Trend (their upper end ones, in a set) which might well be better quality, and so last longer, BUT I don't want to stress or blunt them too quickly, which surely aluminium would? I know at metals go, it's softer than many others; but it's still much harder/tougher than wood, so I am naturally concerned about over-stressing them.

I would very likely buy another router bit, specifically for this job, so it's not going to mess up my decent ones. Am I being overly concerned though? Umm. I have of course worked with both metal and wood, but I've not worked with metal using a router, so it's new/alien to me. I'd rather be over-cautious than a bull at a gate; it's in my nature I'm afraid......so maybe you can put me straight....

 

[Peter Sefton]

Thanks for your offer Peter, but as you say you're not very local to me; and to make a special journey just to see one of your Incra mitre gauges, even with a workshop open day, is rather extravagant, in terms of costs and time. However, I'll maybe see if I can combine it with another trip - though at present no idea what ;(

I must also say, that having looked at the new V120, as opposed to the V27, I really do think it's a very practical, even more appealing alternative to the former. Size wise it's perfect for my smaller tables, but there is still the issue of the groove guide width and depths, and whether the Incras will fit, or can be made to fit. Do you have any suggestions in this direction? I mean, do you offer any kind of 'milling' service, which would enable a bespoke secondary metal strip which can be attached to the existing rail guide, in a fashion as to allow quick removal between my machines? Just and idea........I so wish there was an easier solution to this! :x

Sorry to be so slow getting back to you, We don't offer any milling service at present for the guide bars but this something I would like to look into time permitting. We do seem to have so many band and table saws that could benefit from the addition of an accurate mitre gauge but with only a couple of bar size options. The problem is that we would need to get in the region of 50 made of any one size to make it viable for manufacture which could mean we are left with 49 on the shelf.
You may be able to route your own table top, but do be carful not to take out to much metal.
Cheers Peter

 

[RWoody]

Hi Peter,

Not to worry overly a bout the time factor. I too have been pretty busy, laying engineered flooring recently, so not on this forum.

The idea of using a router to mill was also suggested by marcros, and while I think it's a good idea, my concern - having had metal work classes when I was a lad - if one of 'speed'. A metal-working lathe might turn at 500rpm to cut metal; but a router, at many, many time this, in the 1000s or rpm, might well cause unwelcome heat, even if only cutting very slowly, and cutting a very small amount off - why else would a metal-working lathe only cut as slow speeds? So while I think it's a great idea, from the point of view of control and accuracy, my concern is as described - not to mention the router bit itself too, as such speeds, and hence wear. But, having said that I'm willing to be convinced otherwise if other folk also say they have actually done this, and succeeded without problems (not that I don't trust marcros or yourself of course; I just can't make such a judgement of either of you).

I will, however, say that I have actually managed to find a scrap brass bar, which very nearly fits perfectly as a slide guide anyway. Though it would need the minutest if trimming to get it to fit snugly. I just need another one, of smaller width to fit the bandsaw table groove also. So, potentially this router-milling idea option is still on the table, so to speak.

Thank you for your feedback.

 

[Peter Sefton]

I have routed Ali with no major problems; I have used a standard cutter on a slow speed with a cutting compound. I have done this a few times, first was fitting some trickle vents into some Ali windows and more recently fitting a Router Raizer into an Incra router plate.
If you are interested in having a go I would recommend posting on the metal working section as I am woodworker not a metal engineer so could have been doing it all wrong.
Cheers Peter