Marking knife technique???

[ondablade]

Having just had a play with a newly bought Japanese marking knife in the form of a piece of 3.5mm thick x 15 wide flat steel strip with two single bevel edges ground at 45deg on the same side and a flat back format - I've discovered that they need some care in use.

It's similar to the 'spear point' type here: http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp? ... t_id=13220

I've no significant experience with marking knives, having so far used either pencils or occasionally a craft knife. Can anybody advise whether or not there are recognised right and wrong ways to use them? Hints and tips? Is there a write up anywhere?

It's easy enough to mark a line along a metal straight edge, but it's very easy to trim a sliver off a wooden edge, or for that matter to allow the grain to draw the knife away from the guide. It's on the other hand not all that easy to hold the flat back flush against the side face of the guide.

This type seemed a reasonable choice in that the fairly steep double bevel as on a craft knife is very easily levered away from the guide. (by tipping the blade) Something like the type of pocket knife blade that has a straight cutting edge, with the back edge curved down to the point and a bevel running for the full width of both sides of the blade seems like it might be a good idea, but maybe there are subtle issues there too????

 

[Jacob]

Basically don't use it except for those few lines where you really need a cut edge - usually tenon or dovetail shoulders. Pencil everywhere else.
Not sure what the point is of your jap or the many alternative designs available, as the standard pattern seems perfect to me. Those trendy thin craft-knife shapes look really impractical IMHO.

 

[bugbear]

... the standard pattern seems perfect to me.

How many patterns have you tried in your long career of knife using ?

BugBear

 

[AndyT]

Before this topic veers any further away from the point (a nicely sharpened one I hope!) can I please ask everyone to clarify whether they are talking about Carpentry, Joinery or Cabinetmaking? All woodwork is not the same, and I would venture to suggest that different branches need different levels of accuracy.

For most carpenty, a pencil line is fine; joinery will need a bit more accuracy so knife lines become more common; in cabinetmaking almost all your dimensions will be better marked with a line, and how far the line deviates from where it should be starts to matter.

As for tips on use, I'd say don't forget that almost all of the time you will be locating the knife in the right place, then sliding your t-square up to it, then making the mark.

 

[woodbloke]

Welcome to the Oriental slope of sliperyness :lol: ...it'll be chisels and saws next. There are no special 'rules' with using a Japanese marking knife, except to remember that the steel is much harder than a conventional western style knife, which ought not to cause any practical bother in use - Rob

 

[Jacob]

... the standard pattern seems perfect to me.

How many patterns have you tried in your long career of knife using ?

BugBear

Loads. And pencils. :roll:

 

[moz]

.......a bevel running for the full width of both sides of the blade seems like it might be a good idea, but maybe there are subtle issues there too????

You can use a double bevelled knife but bear in mind that you have to hold it an an angle in order to place the edge adjacent to the guide. Otherwise, apart from the obvious incaccuracy, you create a 'v' shaped notch. I think a single bevel is best for this reason, always placing the bevel on the waste side of the mark so that you get a crisp, vertical line where it needs to be.

I get good results with this type with two cutting edges for convenient left or right handed use:

http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Woodwor ... tools.html

Incidentally, those Japanese knives will take slivers from your steel square so be careful.

John

 

[Jacob]

... All woodwork is not the same, and I would venture to suggest that different branches need different levels of accuracy.....tips on use, I'd say don't forget that almost all of the time you will be locating the knife in the right place, then sliding your t-square up to it, then making the mark.

Good tip.

Having looked at a lot of old joinery and furniture over the years I've concluded that knives were used for DT shoulders always, probably always on face tenon shoulders on furniture at least, but otherwise very little. The idea being to make a clean cut line before following on with a saw etc.
Marking awl lines are found too, all over the place, but if there is no trace of lead remaining you can't tell if they are the result of a hard sharp pencil. In any case the difference between a pencil and an awl was less distinct as for instance a sharp slate pencil both scratches and leaves a trace of slate.
Also I've sometimes found knife marks on just one side of a stile or rail but carried round with a pencil line. My guess is that the knife mark was put there by a senior operative working from a rod, to be indelible, and then completed by the apprentice.

Marking knives seem to get a lot of attention lately, with lots of fancy alternatives on offer, but these fashions come and go. They are obviously more precise than a pencil, but that doesn't equate to being more accurate, as the line can just as easily be put in the wrong place but is less easy to correct.

 

[Alf]

Jeff Gorman's site is about the only source of any information on using marking knives that springs to mind. Might at least provide some, er, "points" to consider.

 

[ondablade]

Thanks for the thoughts and info guys. I bought the knife a little on the spur of the moment (while wandering round killing time in a tool supplier in Dublin), but with an eye to the accurate marking out of joints etc. for cabinet type work.

So far the work I've done has been more DIY related, and I've used pencils or a well pointed engineer's scribe. These knives need a bit more care in use than the scribe though.

It's double sided very much like the Euro version in your link John - I didn't fancy coughing up to buy two single sided models. I've already succumbed to the lure of Japanese chisels Rob, I bought a set from Dieter Schmidt last year but haven't used them as the workshop set up project has stretched out a bit from what I expected.

Thanks for the write up Alf. Sounds like I'd better read it and then get practicing!

 

[bugbear]

... the standard pattern seems perfect to me.

How many patterns have you tried in your long career of knife using ?

BugBear

Loads. And pencils. :roll:

You are the same hair-shirted old scrote who's been posting on the wonders of pencils, and the evil nature of marking knives for years, aren't you?

BugBear

 

[ondablade]

Errrm gents!!!

Here's a few links on marking knives that came up with a quick dig.

It sounds from what Chris Schwarz (a writer I like) has to say in this comparison of some different types that the fairly thick one I've just bought is going to run into trouble (inability to reach into narrow gaps) if used to mark out fine dovetails or the like:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSch ... nives1.asp

Here's one Rolls Royce option from Blue Spruce - they do a nice set of a large, a small and a marking awl - but for about $150 plus no doubt about another $40 for shipping :shock: :
http://www.bluesprucetoolworks.com/cgi/ ... n&key=MKS3

Derek Cohen may be on to something here with his DIY model for dovetails made from an HSS jigsaw blade: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTo ... tails.html

On using these spear pointed knives. From photos it seems some may place the single bevel against the rule/guide, and tip the knife away to leave the bevel vertical. They may also at times use the outer corner rather than the point to mark.

Time to go and play with one for a while....

 

[Jacob]

Horses for courses. The thick trad pattern with a stubby wooden handle is ideal for DT and tenon shoulders as you want to score a deep line with some force. You can then follow up (without letting go or putting down square or knife) and remove a v section with a chisel action from the side, for the start of a saw cut.
But these knives are too thick for between DT pins or pinholes, where the thin craft-knife type (with single bevel) is probably more useful. Personally for the latter I use a home made "marking chisel" - a bit of thin saw-blade mounted in a handle chisel fashion, with a single bevel at the cutting end. I also might use my Opinel penknife, or a pencil etc.

 

[jonrms]

oh for a second there I thought it was a knife... I have been working on my damascus knife.. which is not easy.. havnt found working with the metal any more difficult than normal.... ok maybe a little but not noticable.. sharp (key word here) drill bits... required.. you can get corby bolts if you need them for your handles at http://www.english-handmade-knives.co.u ... nives.html
and you can also get various bits of wood to aid you.... I know that if you contact them they will help you.. obviously as you can see they dont specialise in these types of knifes... but no doubt I am confident they will help you out.

all the best.. please post pictures along the way.. i am curious.

 

[woodbloke]

Errrm gents!!!

Here's a few links on marking knives that came up with a quick dig.

It sounds from what Chris Schwarz (a writer I like) has to say in this comparison of some different types that the fairly thick one I've just bought is going to run into trouble (inability to reach into narrow gaps) if used to mark out fine dovetails or the like:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSch ... nives1.asp

Here's one Rolls Royce option from Blue Spruce - they do a nice set of a large, a small and a marking awl - but for about $150 plus no doubt about another $40 for shipping :shock: :
http://www.bluesprucetoolworks.com/cgi/ ... n&key=MKS3

Derek Cohen may be on to something here with his DIY model for dovetails made from an HSS jigsaw blade: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTo ... tails.html

On using these spear pointed knives. From photos it seems some may place the single bevel against the rule/guide, and tip the knife away to leave the bevel vertical. They may also at times use the outer corner rather than the point to mark.

Time to go and play with one for a while....

There's been a few nice ones made hereabouts over the last coula years. This in one I did rectently from She Oak (kindly supplied by Matt from WH):

Blade is around 1mm thick and made from O1 steel

I know that Rod (Harbo) has dabbled in this area as well and has made some nice knives - Rob

 

[ondablade]

That's a lovely looking job Rob. Did you turn the metal fittings to mount the blade, and is the blade DIY too?

 

[woodbloke]

That's a lovely looking job Rob. Did you turn the metal fittings to mount the blade, and is the blade DIY too?

This was made as a prize for the last UKW Comp a couple(?) of years ago, it now resides with Tony (Escudo) in Norfolk. The brass ferule is the only thing I bought (from the AI stand at Yandles) The blade was ground on the Tormek using a very simple jig to ensure that it was equal each side, the handle was polished with umpteen coats of blonde shellac - Rob

 

[Harbo]

Looks very nice in She Oak Rob

I am sure like mine Rob uses AI chisel ferrules (I generally stock up with them at Yandles)?

Apart from the pencil style I made a few Chris Vesper ones (flat sided) with thicker blades but they are really cutting types?

I also tried out a Dave Barron design (featured in F&C) using a craft knife blade but found the blade to be too bendy?

I buy the gauge plate steel from Cromwells - cooked with a blow torch and tempered in the oven.
Shaped with my Norton 3X grinder and oscillating sander. Honed on my EdgePro knife sharpener.

Rod

 

[woodbloke]

I also tried out a Dave Barron design (featured in F&C) using a craft knife blade but found the blade to be too bendy?
I buy the gauge plate steel from Cromwells - cooked with a blow torch and tempered in the oven.

Rod

Same here for the steel...Cromwell's. That design of Barron's in F&C was inherently flawed on more than one count, the blade was too bendy and it was double beveled on the long edge. Not impressed - Rob

 

[ondablade]

Thanks guys....