LN No9 Mitre Plane

[yetloh]

I'm not an LN fan - I prefer innovators to copyists - but I do have a No9 and am very fond of it. The 51 seems like a big old chunk of iron to be humping around especially for small stuff. If I was in the market ffor something like this I would go for the Veritas equivalent which seems to show a lot more imagination- not a quality that seems to be much valued at LN.

Jim

 

[Trafalgar]

Karl Holtey builds/built Norris reproductions I thought, or certainly designs very much inspired by Norris.

There is nothing wrong with the quality of a Lee Valley plane, they are unfortunately stunningly unattractive (to be kind) but the wood doesn't know it.

 

[bugbear]

Karl Holtey builds/built Norris reproductions I thought, or certainly designs very much inspired by Norris.

He does (did) rather more than that, you'll find.

Look at the #98, and learn.

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

I wasn't suggesting that all his planes were Norris (et al.) inspired, but a whole lot of them were weren't they?

From his website, each referring to a different plane:

"This is an overstuffed infill plane of the traditional Norris type..."

"The A1 Panel / Jointer Infill plane (Norris style)."

"The A13 smoother is another classic dovetailed infill plane, in the style of Norris."

"This design may be more appealing to some than the Norris A7 shoulder plane. Built to the Spiers design..."

"This plane is once again based on the Norris pattern ..."

"Here is my No. 98 plane - the first I have designed from scratch rather than adapting and refining classic designs (??? not so sure, see his own conflicting verbiage that follows). Through the use of modern materials such as stainless steel, the No. 98 has contemporary looks, although the design is firmly rooted in planes of the past. The profile of the No 98 is reminiscent of the old Sargent planes from the U.S.A. - a classic design in it's [sic] own right."


Well, yes it is. Good of him to point that out. "Firmly rooted..." "reminiscent of..." perhaps he only dipped a big toe in the waters of originality.

Tweaking here and there and machining to a higher standard does not an original make. What makes the mass produced planes of the past so remarkable is just that - they were mass produced. They were an incredible industrial achievement. So much so that they are still copied by small batch producers who do, I'll grant, lavish a little more love on the original designs than the original industrial producers.

And so on and so forth. I suppose if one "prefers innovators rather than copyists" (quoted from another poster above who, paradoxically, calls himself 'yetloH') then they should look beyond most of the Holtey range. I'd be thrilled to have one of his copies or 'inspired by' planes though I strongly suspect that the Norris or Spiers planes upon which almost all of them are based would work just fine.

 

[Droogs]

To me nearly all the tools for sale now are merely refinment's not inovations. Afterall if yetloH only used tools from inovators, then I would love to see a picture of his 1880's Arnot and Spencer electric drill or his Boer war Fien electric drill and maybe even his his WW1 era Black and Decker drill driver, rescued/restored from the trenches or how about his 1950's Makita electic planer. After all these are the inovators everything since merely a refinement. I for one can't put my Leonardo Bailous NoIV planum ligna delenimenta down, what with its fancy new bronze sole and iron - yes - iron sides

 

[yetloh]

Karl Holtey builds/built Norris reproductions I thought, or certainly designs very much inspired by Norris.

There is nothing wrong with the quality of a Lee Valley plane, they are unfortunately stunningly unattractive (to be kind) but the wood doesn't know it.

As implied by another poster, Karl Holtey has announced the end of his plane making although he has not quite finished yet. While his earlier planes were often inspired by Norris and other infill makers, none is a copy and they include measures to mitigate the inherent conflicts of planes made from metal stuffed with wood - factors which were ignored by the 19th century makers and continue to be by most contemporary infill makers.

The beaury or otherwise of a Veritas plane is very much a matter of opinion. I find their more recent designs to be at least if not more attractive than LNs Stanley copies and some are technically markedly superior.

Jim

 

[Trafalgar]

I assume the little brass inserts are the solution to which you are referring. I must be a genius, then. I've used a couple dots of silicone caulk on an ECE to raise the angle a little higher. Shaved them down level with each other using a utility knife. Works a treat! It might take twenty minutes for me to inlay wood plugs or even brass ones cut off of a piece of rod stock. This can't possibly be what you consider a breakthrough, or what renders Holtey planes not essentially copies. If so, I need to set up a machine shop. I'm pretty sure that if the wood infill starts moving the little brass plugs are going to go along for the ride unless they go all the way through the wood into the metal body. Somehow.

Best wishes,

Charles

 

[Mr_P]

Time to get this page back on topic (well sort of).

L-N temporary tattoos anyone ?

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4109/gifts

 

[Trafalgar]

Might be a jump the shark moment for L-N. Hard to believe.

 

[Droogs]

Too right 35 bucks for an A2 size poster, what a rip off, my missus just had 50 done for her fringe show for 80.

 

[Trafalgar]

Too right 35 bucks for an A2 size poster, what a rip off, my missus just had 50 done for her fringe show for 80.

They don't need to be selling posters, t-shirts, note cards, and kids' rub-off tattoos that's for damned sure. Chintzy as hell if you ask me. I picture in my mind's eye a management meeting where they're sitting around discussing these items and the picture I get is not a good one. Silly and juvenile.

 

[yetloh]

I assume the little brass inserts are the solution you are referring to. I must be a genius, then. I've used a couple dots of silicone caulk on an ECE to raise the angle a little higher. Shaved them down level with each other using a utility knife. Works a treat! It might take twenty minutes for me to inlay wood plugs or even brass ones cut off of a piece of rod stock. This can't possibly be what you consider a breakthrough, or what renders Holtey planes not essentially copies. If so, I need to set up a machine shop.

Who said anything about a breakthrough? Certainly not me. I was actually thinking of the tubes through which the side to side fixings run so as to mitigate the effects of seasonal movement of the infills. Karl Holtey has never claimed to be doing any thing revolutionary and, if you take the trouble to study the evolution of Holtey designs, you will see it is characterised by incremental change and development - most innovations are small and the word does not require a "brealthrough". The 98 may have been inspired by something earlier but it is very different in detail and since the time of that design his planes heve evolved away from it. Take a look at the 983 block plane which is certainly not a "copy" of anything and is in my opinion probably the best blockplane in the world. To make a relevant analogy, a modern racing bicycle is still recognisably a biciycle but the reason British cycling is the best in the world is that it has systematically looked for marginal gains through small innovations, and continues to do so, because these gaind add up. karl holtey has cosistently done the same.

By the way, I'm glad you have managed to improve your ECE, although I would not have looked to squidgy silicone caulk as a means to gain a higher angle coupled with that first essential, a completely rigid blade bed. Those brass pads have nothing to do with blade angle and everything to do with maintaining a consistent and secure blade bed on a material that can move and do so inconsistently within itself.

Jim

 

[Trafalgar]

I do understand what Holtey was doing with his brass pads and they they were/are milled down to within thousandths of the surface.

For me, the silicone worked perfectly since it was just a very temporary workaround to raise the angle of the plane for a specific purpose. I rubbed it off a few days later. I wasn't looking to 'hit' a particular angle. I just went by eye and seat-of-pants. It does squish down a bit (and one should make an allowance for this) but makes for a very secure bedding of the iron, shock absorbers if you will, and takes up any inequities in the wood bed because of its give. For what I was doing it made more sense than substituting one hard surface for another and was of course faster.

With regard to the Holtey planes themselves I stand by the man's own description of them though clearly there have been tweaks, which is more than a mild understatement. One should give him credit for starting from a very good point of inspiration -- Norris planes -- clearly good in their own right, a very good leaping off point for Holtey.

You mentioned that you have a preference for 'innovators' rather than 'copyists' ("I'm not an LN fan - I prefer innovators to copyists - but I do have a No9 and am very fond of it.") so by this and your other posts on Holtey I assume this means you own Holtey planes and I'd love to hear more about this when you have the time.

 

[mouppe]

Too right 35 bucks for an A2 size poster, what a rip off, my missus just had 50 done for her fringe show for 80.

They don't need to be selling posters, t-shirts, note cards, and kids' rub-off tattoos that's for damned sure. Chintzy as hell if you ask me. I picture in my mind's eye a management meeting where they're sitting around discussing these items and the picture I get is not a good one. Silly and juvenile.

They don't need to sell them, but they do because LN is a place that welcomes whole families- not just woodworkers so it's nice to have a couple of token souvenirs for them. Every year they have an open house weekend with games, barbecues, competitions etc. and there are loads of kids there.

If you ever visit them or attend a workshop they usually give out those items for free anyway, but I'm sure some people want to buy them so they have them for sale in case people ask.

With LN there genuinely isn't a reason to be cynical. It's a well-run, well-intentioned company selling quality products.

 

[David C]

Spot on !

Also with fantastic customer care.

David

 

[Kalimna]

Now, if only they still did cocobolo handles.....

 

[Droogs]

Too right 35 bucks for an A2 size poster, what a rip off, my missus just had 50 done for her fringe show for 80.

They don't need to be selling posters, t-shirts, note cards, and kids' rub-off tattoos that's for damned sure. Chintzy as hell if you ask me. I picture in my mind's eye a management meeting where they're sitting around discussing these items and the picture I get is not a good one. Silly and juvenile.

They don't need to sell them, but they do because LN is a place that welcomes whole families- not just woodworkers so it's nice to have a couple of token souvenirs for them. Every year they have an open house weekend with games, barbecues, competitions etc. and there are loads of kids there.

If you ever visit them or attend a workshop they usually give out those items for free anyway, but I'm sure some people want to buy them so they have them for sale in case people ask.

With LN there genuinely isn't a reason to be cynical. It's a well-run, well-intentioned company selling quality products.

Please don't get me wrong, I do really like a lot of their kit. The fact that they promote traditional hand tools and hand working is great. It certainly provided me with tools that I thought I wouldn't be able to get. And creating and raising your brand awareness is fine. with regard to the souveniers, it's not the fact that they sell them that gets me, it's the mark up %. When my other half got her quotes, if by the time she was ordering them in lots of 1000 or more (which LN would probably do) then the price for each poster was down to 22 pence each. But then, I suppose they need to pay for the barbie and prizes etc somehow.

 

[yetloh]

You mentioned that you have a preference for 'innovators' rather than 'copyists' ("I'm not an LN fan - I prefer innovators to copyists - but I do have a No9 and am very fond of it.") so by this and your other posts on Holtey I assume this means you own Holtey planes and I'd love to hear more about this when you have the time.

I'll send you a PM but probably not for a week or so.

Jim

 

[Trafalgar]

Re: Lie-Nielsen....They're fine. If that have something I need I don't hesitate. I still order saw files from them.

I've owned their skew block, scrub plane, and dovetail saw and sold them. I still have their replica Stanley 66. The planes were replaced by vintage Stanley, which I still have, and I end up using an old Lynx gent's saw for smallish dovetails and a 10" closed handle S&J tenon saw for carcase dovetails. I had a Crown dovetail saw that worked well but it got really kinked when somebody else used it. It's in a drawer.

I do not like A2 steel. I just don't. With the media I own and am used to it just never seemed to get as sharp. The dovetail saw was super-grabby to start and I didn't think it worth the trouble to fool around with or get used to. I probably wasn't man enough for such a saw. The market is strong for these so off to EBay it went.

 

[Trafalgar]

You mentioned that you have a preference for 'innovators' rather than 'copyists' ("I'm not an LN fan - I prefer innovators to copyists - but I do have a No9 and am very fond of it.") so by this and your other posts on Holtey I assume this means you own Holtey planes and I'd love to hear more about this when you have the time.

I'll send you a PM but probably not for a week or so.

Jim

Only if you have time, don't go to any special trouble.