Laminating frames - dimensioned drawings

[Steve Maskery]

I've been doing some research into window and door frames and am particularly interested in the fact that the Scandinavians have for years been laminating their sections from 19mm stock. I can recommend Patrick Hislop - High performance wood windows:
http://www.trada.co.uk/techinfo/asset/s ... s%2Cwindow

although you will probably have to register (free) in order to follow the hyperlink. Anyway, this is the idea:

So I was wondering if anyone else had come across this, is it worth the hassle of gluing up? My guess is that yes it is, and I'm inclined to do it that way, as I do not want my own French Doors and windows to be second best. I want them to work perfectly and last the rest of the house's life.

Cheers
Steve

Any experience anyone?

 

[Chris Knight]

Steve, I haven't seen this before and wonder what the advantages are - I can imagine it's a question of the sourcing of better wood/sections. thinner wood can be sourced from cheaper supplies. This might be more relevant in a manufacturing situation than a one off.

It goes without saying there will be a need for more material preparation if laminated this way and the glue had better be 100% waterproof!

 

[druster]

I think the main advantages are cost of timber by using smaller sections and dimensional stability due to opposing forces, when laminated correctly. Of course correct glue is paramount. You are also more likely to have dry timber throughout.
I think they are a good idea for all these reasons but is our more ecologicaly sound times they also allow you to use more of the tree!

 

[Steve Maskery]

Hi Chris
Well the argument runs that the laminated sections save material - yes, I agree that's more important in a commercial environment than a one-off. You can make the rebates without cutting away a large part of the original timber, and as rebates are bigger than they used to be, because of the bigger sealed units, this is a saving.

Of more interest to me is the dimensional stability of the frames, particularly the French Windows. I've seen too many large doors (and made one or two myself) that are a disappointing fit simply because they don't stay flat. The door closes at one corner whilst still has another half-an-inch to go at the other. I'm hoping that lamination will reduce the risk of that happening.

As for 100% waterproof glue, you are the glue expert, are you not? I've recently bought some WeyRoc D4, designed for decking, but it's messy and I'm now considering Titebond 3. What do you think?

S

 

[Rich]

Hi Steve, the Scandinavians are no fools, look at volvo for instance, if they have been laminating frames like that for years then it must be working, who are we to argue with them? we only need a bit of snow or rain and the country comes to a standstill, if you're going to go with it I'd be interested to follow your progress as I intend to build a greenhouse on the backend of my workshop for SWIMBO, (I promised this after I pinched half of the garden for the workshop).
Regards, Rich.

 

[Chris Knight]

Steve,
For glue, I would use West System epoxy. I'd be looking for unquestionable waterproofness and longer open times for a job like this and West's provides both. I might also say Balcotan polyurethane but it has a short shelf life and some of the stuff I have used recently has been too old even though fresh from the shop. It is also very slippery and for this job I'd want a bit better grab.

 

[speed]

velux windows also use samll timbers laminated

 

[John McM]

Steve, I've seen lots of bumpf from various manufacturers that use kiln dried redwood laminated with opposing growth rings for dimensional stability. They all incorporate weather strips, DG units, air vents, high security hinges etc and offer a real high performance alternative to the modern plastic norm. I think you might have to be careful with proportions or the casements can look too thick. Good luck with your venture. I for one would like to see how you get on. Any plans to document your progress? As an aside have you messed about with a design in Sketchup. I seem to remember Keith from the Woodwork mag mentioning using laminations because you did not need to cut traditional joints, the pieces just overlayed each other at the corners building up a kind of bridle joint I guess.
Cheers

 

[Steve Maskery]

Yes, I like the idea of being able to make double (or os it twin?) M&Ts by lamination, or at least do the hard part (the separation between tenons) that way. Then all I have to do is worry about the fit of the tenons themselves.

I'm just starting on my SU model now. I dare say I'll be writing this little adventure up as a mag article, either for GW or BW, assuming, of course that I don't make a complete dog's breakfast of it all!

I've been to Wickes today to have a look. They used to stock ready-made windows, but now just have a display and you order what you want. I have to say I was quite impressed with the quality of the display window, although not with the workmanship displayed by whoever fitted the hardware!

Cheers
Steve

 

[Shultzy]

Steve, I would also be interested in your findings as I have to make 10 windows for my workshop, 8no. 24x18 and 2no. 36x48.

 

[ike]

I've been using laminated construction for window frames for ages. As long as you use a waterproof glue, it's a great way to make up the sections without needing a spindle moulder. I got shot down by some here the last time I suggested it, plenty of theory being spouted but the proof is in the pudding. It's a sound, economic technique that has been around for donkeys years - simple as that.


cheers,

ike

 

[Steve Maskery]

Ike,
what glue do you use? Chris is suggesting West System Epoxy. I have a big container of the stuff, but IIRC it's horrid to use. Damn good bond though, although I wonder if something less brittle would be better, assuming all other considerations were the same (viz. 100% watterproof). Thats why I'm leaning towards Titebond£, except I have no person experience of it, just what I have read.

What do you use?
S

 

[ike]

I have been using Titebond Premium. Good for 5 years externally so far. I'd use Titebond 3 were it not that I have a good 1/2 gallon of Premium still left.

cheers,

Ike

 

[Steve Maskery]

OK guys, here is my proposed dimensioned drawing. The features (I sound like a salesman) are:

All exposed nominally horizontal surfaces are beveled to shed water at 1:10 or about 6 degrees.

Glazing bead is beveled at 1:6 (about 10 degrees.

If I do laminate, the casements are 3x20mm, the frames 3x27mm (ex inch and inch-and-a-quarter, respectively).

I plan to use espagnolette bolts and friction hinges. If I use trad casement stays it means making the frame even thicker to accommodate the mounting of them.

My questions are:
Have I got the dimensions about right? I need to have it big enough to be strong, but I don't want them to look over-chunky).

Have I missed anything vital and obvious (or even not so obvious)?

Do you think that having an ovolo on both the casements and the frames is a bit OTT? The originals in the house have ovolo on the casements and roundover on the frames but I've always thought that looks a bit odd.

Please stop me from doing something stupid! Furniture I know about, architectural woodwork, well, her be dragons.

Cheers
Steve

 

[LyNx]

It's been a while since I built any windows but a view things I've noticed.

1) Top weatherstripping should be in edge of rebate as bottom strip.

2) I would bring the casement out from the frame face by 10/12mm, then rebate casement to allow it to sit within the frame rebate, not over it. This will allow more storm proofing to the over-all unit. (unless you want the flush look)

Sort of like this picture

3) Make all bevels 9deg. Easier to set-up a standard 9deg block in the spindle and mould sections at once.

4) Beading on the inside too. As this image.

Hope this helps a bit

 

[LyNx]

I would also allow for a dry glazing system incorporating the easyclip glazing system.

Makes it that little bit harder for the pippers to break in.

http://www.reddiseals.com/acatalog/dry_glazing.html

 

[Steve Maskery]

Ooh, that is useful, Andy, thanks.

I don't want a stormproof design, the original house didn't and with modern weatherstripping it's not as necessary as it once was, plus it's easier to get a screwdriver underneath if you have mal-intent.

My understanding of weatherstripping at the top is as follows. When using friction stays, the movement of the casement is a shearing action at the top, less so at the bottom. So by putting the weatherstripping at the top rather than the back of the rebate, I am maintaining the force on the weatherstripping as the manufacturer intended i.e. compression rather than abrasion. Does that make sense?

That cutaway illustration is excellent, ta!
S

 

[LyNx]

I can see your thinking about the weather stripping but in all windows I've seen/made, it's been in the edge of the rebate as stated earlier. If you move the top strip out of line from the other edges you may be creating a small gap which may allow a slight draft.

You also have you sealed unit at 44mm, is this a typo??

You will also need a capillary groove on the head rail to stop any water travelling on the underside of your rebate

 

[Steve Maskery]

44mm? Oops, sorry, it's a 44mm rebate for a 24mm sealed unit!

Thanks for the heads up on the head.

As to the weatherstripping, I can see your point about gaps. Perhaps it is possible to mount the two strips on adjacent survaces (back and side of the rebate, but touching so there are no gaps? I'll have to draw it up and see if that is feasible.

Thanks for your input, much appreciated!
S

 

[LyNx]

If drawing it up, try putting the AQ21 Aquaseal around the perimeter of the rebate as discussed but adding a AQ63 to the top as you stated