Ken Robinson says schools kill creativity

[WandrinAndy]

Well worth listening to IMO....

Ken Robinson says schools kill creativity - http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

 

[Cheshirechappie]

It's always going to be impossible to find a 'correct' balance, because there isn't one. How do you teach creativity, anyway? Many creative talents seem to be innate rather than taught. The doesn't seem much point in turning out creative people if they can't read, write and consequently communicate their ideas effectively.

Unfortunately, education has always had more than it's fair share of idealists and idealogues. Maybe getting the foundations in place is boring, but it is essential, and sometimes some of the idealogues seem to forget that.

 

[AES]

Interesting.

But I've been away from UK so long that A) I have no idea what schools are like now; and B), sorry to display my ignorance, but I've no idead who this chap Sir Kenneth Robinson is.

But I can say that having failed the 11 Plus in 1956 at age 11 I went to a Secondary Modern School (lots of them actually, because we moved around a lot). I already had a liking for/feeling for "making stuff" with my hands, consequently I thoroughly enjoyed/did quite well in Technical Drawing, Metalwork, and Woodwork lessons in all those schools. In fact in the various stages of my life when I've tried to/needed to make stuff in wood, the lessons that the wonderful Mr. Johnstone, my last Woodwork teacher, imparted have certainly stuck. I may not be (correction, I'm most definitely not) of the standard of many of the people on here, but as I proved to my satisfaction just a few weeks ago, I can still knock out a reasonable mortice & tenon with just hand tools - something that I doubt I've done since at least 30 years ago.

So did the above schools teachers give me my "creativity" (if that's what it is)? Well IMHO they certainly did encourage me, especially the aforesaid Mr. Johnstone, but as above, I think I was already a bit inclined that way, probably before I even started school at age 5 (amongs other factors, my Dad had a workshop with a Myford 7 in it)!

But I also do entirely agree with the point that "the 3 Rs" are absolutley fundamental. I ended up in fairly high management positions (always technical though) and the fact that I could read and write properly, without spelling errors, plus verbally express myself clearly, if necessary in front of an audience, definitely played a part in whatever success I achieved. Again those skills were definitley "encourgaed" at school (OK, the were definitely insisted on!), but again I also owe my parents quite a debt too.

So in short, "interesting, but I dunno".

Krgds
AES

 

[Dusty]

Evening all , I finished school in 97 and was only to happy to be out , I actually left earlier due to being 16 before the april so could leave early on "revision leave" . I went to work for a local chippy before my exams !

Anyway , in my final 3 years at school we had 3 lessons a week in a design lesson . one in Design Tech ( drawing ) , one in design realisation ( actually making some thing ) and one in a design something that turned out to be farting around with card etc . The first year you did all three and then the last two years you had to select just two . I chose the drawing and making , subsequently I only got realisation ! as there were not enough spaces .

I knew I was never going to be a brain surgeon and focused my own lunch times on going in and doing extra ( after a quick *** behind the sports hall of all places ) . I also had to choose between history and geography , chose history and after 6 months got fed up with learning about the american boom bust and recovery . after much complaining and my parents standing up for me I managed to bin the subject as for me history is history 0000 to present day not politics and economics !! any way I managed to blag extra design but had to sit at the back of other groups lessons and carry on with my work . I was 'proper' chuffed to say the least .

I came out with with a B for my design and D onwards / downwards for everything else . french - f and a U , english e and a u , maths -c bla bla bla .

I suppose what I am trying to say is that I am bloody bitter that as a student I knew what my strong points were but I was not able to focus on them and gain the best possible grades , but had to conform to the governments scheme of ramming crap like compulsory french and german english literature ( can anyone explain how reading shakespeare teaches us how to "speak proper" . There needs to be more choice for those who are not so academic .

I had one good teacher who I still bump in to now called MR C , he had alot of time for me and I looked up to him in DT , he even maintains the education system is biased .

I am not clever , I am not "educated " but I would rather earn my money as I do than have a million diplomas and cant find a job as i would be too over qualified ! and to scared to get my hands dirty !!!!

Happy days , rant over , now the weekend begins .

Kind regards Sam

 

[James C]

The theory of diminished creativity has been around for a long time and all learning hampers creativity to some degree.

Children supposedly make the best scientists/inventors because they aren't limited by knowledge and understanding. If you have no concept of gravity or wind resistance or friction then your assumptions on what is possible will be completely different to someone who does.

I don't like that Design Technology has been knocked down the pecking order but many schools will not invest money into it because pupils (parents) don't really go for the subject as other things such as History and Geography are more important apparently.

I like how the government laments the lack of British lead manufacturing whilst at the same time talking about making Design Technology and Engineering subjects optional for secondary schools and not including it in their baccalaureate.

 

[Jacob]

It's always going to be impossible to find a 'correct' balance, because there isn't one. How do you teach creativity, anyway? Many creative talents seem to be innate rather than taught. The doesn't seem much point in turning out creative people if they can't read, write and consequently communicate their ideas effectively.

Don't agree. Dyslexia is a common feature of the creative world. The arts becomes the place where intelligence and creativity can be developed by people not at ease in the main stream - hence the great success of art colleges as hot beds of talent in many areas.

Unfortunately, education has always had more than it's fair share of idealists and idealogues. Maybe getting the foundations in place is boring, but it is essential, and sometimes some of the idealogues seem to forget that.

We need more idealists, not fewer. But we also need much greater public spending on education as a whole, including the arts, design, technology.

.......... There needs to be more choice for those who are not so academic ........

Absolutely agree. There's a strong elitist trend in education, as we saw from Gove's agenda which thankfully has been dropped. It's not just the private schools it's endemic throughout the system and ultimately unproductive. The great success of state education has been in bringing forwards the otherwise underprivileged, which is of course the reason the right don't like it - it's a threat to the privileges of wealth.

 

[WandrinAndy]

Suppose it was bound to happen sometime..... I agree with Jacob 100%. :shock: I'm now wondering whether I should be worried? :wink:

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Suppose it was bound to happen sometime..... I agree with Jacob 100%. :shock: I'm now wondering whether I should be worried? :wink:

Maybe you should be worried!

I wonder sometimes whether too much is expected by some people of schools. After all, children are in school for a (relatively) short time, so there's a limit to what can be taught. Listening to the debates about education, the range of things that various people think should be taught seems to lengthen every year - creativity, entrepreneurship, self-expression, work ethic - the list goes on. Surely no school can teach all these things, but they can at least teach the basics - reading, writing, maths - to a good standard. Some schools have failed to manage that, for whatever reason. That's a failure that needs to be addressed before looking at the fancy stuff, I feel.

Jacob says we need more idealists. I worry that idealists, whilst no doubt sincere, often want to impose their ideas on others, to the exclusion of all other ideas. Maybe we need pragmatists - those willing to teach all types of people as best they can.

Jacob says we need more money spent on education. Well, good arguments can be made for spending more on all sorts of things - defence, energy, transport, healthcare for example - but we already spend more than we earn, so it's just not possible. Education, like every recipient of taxpayers' cash, will have to get by with a little less, simply because economic circumstances are what they are.

Jacob agrees that there needs to be more choice for those who are not so academic. There did indeed used to be such a choice - the chance to leave education at age 16 and seek vocational training or work experience. I'm inclined to think that was a good option for many people, and should be reinstated, along with incentives for employers to operate good apprenticeship schemes.

There is a slightly cynical saying that you should never let school get in the way of a good education. I think there's more than a germ of truth in that; school, for me, was a foundation on which to build, and was complemented by many childhood experiences which were in many ways more educational than schooling in ways that formal schooling could never have been. Maybe we should use schools to impart the basics of reading, writing, maths, sciences and humanities, perhaps with an exploration of music, drama, art, and practical subjects and sports, and then allow people to follow the path most suited to them, be it more rigorous education or training, or the world of work. People are by nature so different that one-size-fits-all education is bound to fail most.

 

[AES]

Interesting debate. Personally I lean more towards Cheshire Chappie's view than Jacob's (though that is not to say Jacob is completely wrong - IMHO!).

QUOTE:
Jacob says we need more idealists. I worry that idealists, whilst no doubt sincere, often want to impose their ideas on others, to the exclusion of all other ideas. Maybe we need pragmatists - those willing to teach all types of people as best they can.

AES: "Right On!"

Jacob says we need more money spent on education. Well, good arguments can be made for spending more on all sorts of things - defence, energy, transport, healthcare for example - but we already spend more than we earn, so it's just not possible. Education, like every recipient of taxpayers' cash, will have to get by with a little less, simply because economic circumstances are what they are.
UNQUOTE:

AES: Also correct, see below:

Again using my own (very out of date) schooling experience:
When I was at Secondary Modern school EVERYONE was expected to be able to read, write, plus do arithmetic to at least a basic standard. And it was rare that kids leaving school then did not reach that basic standard. I understand that this is far from the norm in UK these days.

As regards the reading and writing bit, we are after all talking about using our own native language. Perhaps because I now live in a foreign country and am expected to be able to at least converse in a language which is not my mother tongue (and feel embarassed when I make mistakes and have to get my wife to double-check important letters for me) I tend to feel that "we" (Englishmen) all should be able to communicate in our own language (English) without making basic mistakes such as we see every day, e.g.

weather-whether; site-sight; their-there; - and there are MANY MANY more to be seen daily!

And look at the standard of work often displayed here on this site. That's clearly the "creative" side, but surely Jacob, those craftsmen and tradesmen wouldn't last too long "just" making such wonderful stuff if they couldn't also at least add, subtract, multiply, and divide plus "advertise" their work in some way, would they? Especially so the self-employed?

Jacob you say that there are people who suffer from Dyslexia, and I'm sure you're right. BUT isn't this "disease" (which was I think unknown - or at least not in common currency) when I was at school, just too much of any easy excuse for schoolkids - and parents - to be lazy in this area? I think I'm right in saying that after I left school, it was an educational fashion at one stage to let kids get away without bothering too much about spelling at all.

But in my view if parents did as mine did and read to me every night when I was really young and then went on to encourage reading to myself in all sorts of books and magazines as I was starting school and growing older, isn't it true that most kids (apart form the probably very few cases of genuine Dyslexia) will actually pick up correct spelling almost by osmosis? I think that's what happened to me, AND millions of others like me/my parents. That in turn gave my schoolteachers a good foundation to work on for the basics, AND gave them more time to spend more time on "other stuff" such as Woodwork, Metalwork, Art, Music, Drawing, whatever.

So I think Cheshire Chappie is quite right - I'm not a parent and have nothing to do with any sort of school these days, but listening to many parents of today (both on BBC Radio 4 & World Service and here on Swiss radio & TV) it does seem to me that many of them now feel that it's the job of schools to teach their kids virtually EVERYTHING, including the 3 Rs, basic morality, discipline, sexual relationships, and a million other things besides. That's expecting rather a lot from schoolteachers, even if the budget (and time) exists to do all that at school.

Krgds
AES

 

[Mike Wingate]

Really great. I have been teaching Handicraft/craft/Wood/metal/tech drawing/design/design tech/etc for the last 40 years, less 73 school days. I am soon to retire. My eldest daughter is a dance teacher, A level dance at a 6th form college. What this guy says is true. If you have the right "teacher" people will learn, and improve. Each year I am privileged to teach some 10/11 year old. The doors are open for them to gain skills, think and do in a safe environment, there are few mistakes made and the pupils are stimulated. Some are not as good. After 3 years of this, suddenly the spark is extinguished and they are on the corporate/achademic train of exams for exam sake and the need for qualifications. The spirit and inventivness has gone. The creativity has been ground away by the "academic " subjects. I am not being replaced next year when I retire. I listen to what Dyson calls for, and then what successive ministers of education call for. A disaster waiting to happen. This was a very good speech by Ken Robinson. Will anyone listen. What would we do without music and inventions.

 

[Modernist]

it's ironic really. Whilst the present and recent governments work on the basis that we are finished as manufacturing nation they reduce the emphasis on creative subjects in favour of pure academia, which is not for many. I suppose since you need neither brains nor education to be a chancer in the financial markets they are on target.

Gove is a dangerous ideologue whose light appears to be on the wane thank goodness.

I suppose all of that is just typical of the idiots we currently have in power without an effective thought through policy between them.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

it's ironic really. Whilst the present and recent governments work on the basis that we are finished as manufacturing nation they reduce the emphasis on creative subjects in favour of pure academia, which is not for many. I suppose since you need neither brains nor education to be a chancer in the financial markets they are on target.

Gove is a dangerous ideologue whose light appears to be on the wane thank goodness.

I suppose all of that is just typical of the idiots we currently have in power without an effective thought through policy between them.

Interesting how thoughts differ on this.

Until recently, the secondary education system was turning out youngsters of whom, according to some, 20% were functionally illiterate. It doesn't matter how creative any of them might be, they will be pretty much unemployable in anything but labouring jobs. That had to change, and Gove does seem to be addressing the problem. Indeed, he seems to be the only Education Minister in 30 years to actually address current failings in education.

For many people, the 'dangerous idealogues' were the entrenched 'education establishment', promoting their mantras of anti-elitism, the abolition of competition, and purveying the myth that anybody can do anything they want to. The real world, be it financial services, engineering, retail, public services or anything else, doesn't work like that; it's a hard world, and you have to work to succeed at anything. Success is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration, and unless you're prepared to do the boring, mundane graft, somebody else will beat you out of sight. Creativity is fine in it's own right, but without buckets of application and hard work, it's useless; it won't pay the bills on it's own.

 

[Jacob]

Creative industries in Britain is huge and also a major exporter. It's one area where employment prospects are high. The public schools know this and invest a huge amount in music. theatre etc which is why you see so many posh kids in film, TV etc.
This is the real world too. It covers a very wide field, performing arts, fashion, design, publishing and not least- the media. Virtually everybody is a consumer in one way or another.
Gove is a moron.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Creative industries in Britain is huge and also a major exporter. It's one area where employment prospects are high. The public schools know this and invest a huge amount in music. theatre etc which is why you see so many posh kids in film, TV etc.
This is the real world too. It covers a very wide field, performing arts, fashion, design, publishing and not least- the media. Virtually everybody is a consumer in one way or another.
Gove is a moron.

So how much does film, television et al contribute to GDP? 1%? 2%?

Gove is the best Education Secretary the country has had in decades.

 

[Jacob]

Creative industries in Britain is huge and also a major exporter. It's one area where employment prospects are high. The public schools know this and invest a huge amount in music. theatre etc which is why you see so many posh kids in film, TV etc.
This is the real world too. It covers a very wide field, performing arts, fashion, design, publishing and not least- the media. Virtually everybody is a consumer in one way or another.
Gove is a moron.

So how much does film, television et al contribute to GDP? 1%? 2%?

Google it. First quote found - according to the CBI The creative industries contribute 6% of GDP, employ over 2 million people and export over £16bn annually.
Google a bit further and you find the automotive industry represents 3% of GDP. Just random quotes - try and put flesh on them yourself, you will be in for a surprise!

Gove is the best Education Secretary the country has had in decades.

Yesterday's man. Another tory nonentity soon to be forgotten. Luckily most of his mad ideas have been shelved.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Jacob - are you suggesting that the education system should be run to support only 6% of the economy?

Gove seems to be today's man. Still in post, last time I checked.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob - are you suggesting that the education system should be run to support only 6% of the economy?

No of course not. But 'creativity' in education should extend further than the 6% who might get jobs, as 100% are consumers for a start and creativity is relevant to most jobs and activities in one way or another.

Gove seems to be today's man. Still in post, last time I checked.

Still in post but policies discredited and ignored.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes, come 2015 Gove will probably be gone, and we'll be back to Labour government who'll tell another generation of children that they are the the most intelligent children the world's ever known, and give them A*s for turning up at school. A few years ago someone in the corridors of power actually said that "a C grade at gcse in English or maths was not a guarantee of functional literacy or numeracy".
It doesn't much matter how good children are in other spheres if they can't read, write and add up.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Two posts, again.

 

[Jacob]

,,,,,,,
It doesn't much matter how good children are in other spheres if they can't read, write and add up.

Nonsense - it obviously matters even more if they can't read, write and add up, even if it's just bloody woodwork!
Self evident really. Nothing political, ideological or theoretical about it.