Japanese saw benfits over western saws?

[Dino]

This question is a two parter.

I'm currently planning on purchasing 14tpi dovetail saw from Veritas to get into some hand-made box making.

However Rutlands just emailed me regarding this offer on japanese saws.

I am just wondering:
1) What are the benefits of Japanese saws against western saws (both in general and for my specific purposes of dovetail cutting)
2) Are the ones offered by Rutlands good? Or should I aim for some others?

Thanks folks.

 

[MIGNAL]

They appear to be by Gyokucho, so should be decent saws.
The Dozuki should give a very fine kerf, thin gauge plate hence the steel back. The Kataba will give around 0.7 -0.8 mm kerf. I have both X cut and rip cut in the Kataba format. The X cut is virtually effortless, the rip not quite as good.
I have another which has a universal blade and very good it is too. I really like the Japanese saws, prefer them to their western counterparts, at least for X cuts and for relatively fine cutting saws. Bigger 'rough cut' or firewood saws may be another experience but I've never used such a beast in a Japanese tooth pattern..
The disadvantage is that you can't sharpen these types. They are throwaway blades and you have to use a light touch, the blades are easily damaged if you are a little too heavy handed. Some folk don't get on with the broom handles but I find them perfectly good.

 

[beech1948]

I'm also exploring the use of Japanese saws.

I'm 67 with over 50yrs of wood sawing experience and have learned through repetitive practice to cut fairly accurate dovetails, rips, Xcut etc. Western saws require a different grip and approach than the Japanese saws and this older skill is now bound into my muscle memory.

I bought 4 Japanese saws about 9 months ago as I had a project for 10 boxes to complete and thought they might help with some of the very fine work needed.

My initial experience was that these were not saws but instruments of inaccurate torture. Why ? My 50+yrs of western saws was getting in the way. About the only common technique was "To let the saw do the work" but my grip, stance, rigidity of arm etc was too tightly held for the jap saws. So I went back to my western saws and even added a 22 tooth/inch western saw to help with fine work.

Boxes completed I had to put aside an hour a day just practicing on scrap cutting joints eg dovetails and after about 2 weeks could produce dovetails from the jap saws as good as the western saws...hooray. Now 9 months later and still practicing some of my smaller and finer work is better off from the jap saws than the western ones. I find for short (up to 50mm) cuts they can be excellent.

Crosscutting a panel is still not as good as western saws for me...don't know why. Ripping also is still not as good and is slower. I work mainly in hardwoods rather than the softwoods predominantly available in Japan. Not sure if this is why there can be problems.

My view is that like every thing it takes time to become competent and thus confident about the results that can be obtained and that earned confidence is important. My newer extra skills also came from a couple of sessions with a colleague who almost exclusively uses japanese tools. He is younger (29) perhaps more ready to challenge the old order. Its interesting to see the look on his face when I bring out my 100yr old dovetail saw and he feels the weight and size vs his own shiny jap saws. A bit of cross learning going on here I think.

I'm now at the point where I use both types of saw fairly equally. I think a 5 ppi western rip will outperform a jap saw every time in say 35mm thick x2440mm UK oak in terms of speed, accuracy and finish but I have found that jap saws can give really good results on shorter cuts such as dovetails.

Hope this helps.
From an old crock with too much time spent sawing.

 

[Dino]

Helps a lot, yes! But does make my decision a little tougher haha. Really appreciate the input, love hearing from people with actual experience.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I've been playing too - Hassunme rip and X-cut from Axminster (on offer last year). I really like them, BUT I have the same 'muscle memory' thing. If I concentrate I do fine, but I haven't got it ground into the grey matter yet, and forgetting usually means mucking up what I"m cutting.

I agree too about X-cut being easier to use, but you can achieve wonderful results with both types. I'm considering one of those circular saw guides for mitres, as I've had difficulty following a line sometimes.

On the other hand, this afternoon I cut about 1:8 diagonal into the edge of a piece of 6mm ply, to take out a wedge. I didn't think it could be done, but worth a try. To be fair I started the cut in a bit of softwood next to the ply, but even so, the result was as clean as it could be.

They do impress me, both in quality of cut and what you can achieve with them.

E.

 

[Harbo]

I'm a bit older than Beech and experienced no problems in using Japanese ones - in fact they are my "go to" saws.
I've a Sunchild, a couple I bought from Workshop Heaven and a small 150mm one I bought from Axy.
I work mainly with hardwoods and have had them for at least 10yrs and they all perform well with no missing teeth.

Rod

 

[custard]

Dino, take a moment and think about saw sharpening. Your saw won't stay sharp for ever, so how will you sharpen it?

Many people never learn to sharpen, they buy a Lie Nielsen saw and when it's blunt they sell it on Ebay, get about 70% of the new price, and buy a replacement. It's probably cheaper than having it professionally sharpened (although you can and should question the morality of it) even assuming you can find a saw sharpener that you trust.

You know yourself better than anyone on this forum, do you think you're the type of person who will teach himself to properly sharpen a saw? Will you buy the files, the saw set, and the other bits and pieces needed, will you make a saw vice and then get an old practise saw and invest twenty or thirty hours learning how to do the job?

If so, good for you, go for it, good Western saws are beautiful tools to use! If not, use Japanese saws which have hardened points that can last for years of hobbyists use before becoming blunt, and are then intended to be thrown away.

Actually you can get small disposable hard point saws from B&Q or Axminster. These are perfectly capable of producing beautiful dovetails (if you lived a bit closer I'd invite you to my workshop and cut a flawless dovetail for you with an old hacksaw), but if you are a new to dovetailing your first efforts won't be all that elegant (mine weren't) and if you're using a B&Q disposable then you'll probably blame the saw, or at least harbour a nagging suspicion that with some super duper saw your dovetails would immediately look much nicer...they wouldn't but hey ho, we're all human!

Good luck.

 

[Jacob]

...
1) What are the benefits of Japanese saws against western saws (both in general and for my specific purposes of dovetail cutting)
...

No particular virtues they just have novelty value. Have a go! Expensive though, as you can't resharpen them.

But if you want to get into DTs I'd stick with just one saw until you can do it in your sleep- 18 to 20 tpi 8" old fashioned S&J or similar DT saw. £10 ish on ebay.

 

[Trafalgar]

It would be interesting to hear from those who've bought the 'real thing' Japanese saw (not induction hardened) how they've accommodated having them sharpened over the years and the cost incurred if sent out. The rip saws are easy enough to handle on one's own (same as western saws but a different rake), the crosscut saws another matter.

 

[Jacob]

/.....
Actually you can get small disposable hard point saws from B&Q or Axminster. These are perfectly capable of producing beautiful dovetails (if you lived a bit closer I'd invite you to my workshop and cut a flawless dovetail for you with an old hacksaw), ......

I bought a £3 DT saw from Wilkinsons which turned out to be blunt! Ridiculous really - good sharp cheap hardpoint saws are commonplace. Not something they should get wrong. I complained - they replaced it with another blunt one. Complained again and by way of compensation they sent me 2 Draper "expert" hand saws which were very very good, but no good for DTs.

It's a bit like musical instruments. If you can't play the recorder you could search the biggest recorder shop in the world but still not find one you could play. But if you put enough time in with any old recorder (within reason) you will get to be good at it.

 

[Richard863]

Hi All

For small cuts I prefer the Japanese breed of hand saws as they work on the pull stroke. I personally find this more accurate and a better finish especially with dovetail joints.

Richard

 

[Eric The Viking]

...
1) What are the benefits of Japanese saws against western saws (both in general and for my specific purposes of dovetail cutting)
...

No particular virtues they just have novelty value. Have a go! Expensive though, as you can't resharpen them.

Jacob, in the nicest way, that's complete horse poo.

You're not wrong about technique practice, but they don't sell because they're a novelty - it's because they're brilliant.

 

[Graham Orm]

They are superb. I have an excellent DT saw and it's not been touched since I bought a Japanese saw. It cuts twice as fast and with half the kerf. Constantly tempted to use it for other stuff and have to hold back.

 

[G S Haydon]

I'm not sure about benefits but the Dozuki & Ryoba by Gyokucho are wonderful and I think good value. The induction hardened teeth last so long that for typical use it's going to be a very long time before you have to get a new blade. Although the initial purchase of a Western saw from a boot sale etc might be low by the time you purchase files, saw sets and learned how to do it the real cost benefit of western/japanese is not really worth worrying about. I would go as far as to say in my limited experience the Gyokucho dozuki is the nicest dovetail saw I have used.

 

[Trafalgar]

I do have an Irwin Marples Ryoba which does a great job on gently curved workpieces. Good on small tree limbs too. It came pretty darned sharp and at $20 a good buy.

 

[J_SAMa]

In short, it depends on how you work. If the rest of your arsenal is western and you have a western workbench, then Japanese saws make no sense at all. They are fast and smooth and all but that's about it. Buy the Veritas, the perfect beginner saw, you'll like it (if you have a western kit that it fits in with). With a little tuning it's perfect in every way.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A little history shall we?
Japanese joiners/woodworkers never worked with "workbenches" in the western sense (that is, a sturdy, tall bench with a vice, and surface a clamping system meant to be used with the craftsman standing) They would lay a large board with a thin batten fixed at one end (as a planing stop or what have you) on the floor and that was all the working surface they had. They would kneel or sit and the workpiece was fixed by their feet, which obvious can't compare to a western vice.
This demanded that the saws be as smooth as possible so as not to produce too much vibration, hence the thin kerf and small teeth. Yeah they're fast, but then they mandate chisels with thin side lands (there's a reason why the Japanese invented dovetail chisels).
The shortness of Japanese saws (compare a 10 inch Ryoba to a 20 inch panel saw) was developed due to the limited range of motion that the craftsman would have sitting down. If you work standing up it can be argued that a western saw's long stroke make up for the speed difference!
The long straight handle? That's because they are double handed. Using one at western bench height is to say the least uncomfortable. You also can't steer as well as you can with a pistol-grip western saw.
Another point, pull saws extract the dust on your side and covers up your gauge/pencil lines... Not really a problem but just annoying.

If you want smooth finish right off the saw try Zona razor saws. Workshop Heaven and even Amazon have them.

 

[G S Haydon]

Really, don't overthink this. Lonnie Bird http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/102 ... -secretary feels a Dozuki is ideal for dovetails. Pick a saw, see how you go.

 

[Graham Orm]

In short, it depends on how you work. If the rest of your arsenal is western and you have a western workbench, then Japanese saws make no sense at all.

That statement makes no sense at all. You don't have to sit on the floor to use it, I have not used my 'western' DT saw for 2 years and have been managing just fine with my Japanese saw at my western bench.

 

[MIGNAL]

Me too. I bought my first Japanese saw around 1990. I had absolutely no problem taking to it or indeed cutting a straight line.

 

[jimi43]

I have the Huntley Oak Z Saw and I use it all the time...and particularly where a backsaw won't do...depth!

It is still as sharp as the day I bought it for all of £20 as a "spare" blade as I wanted to make my own handle.

It has been specifically designed by Mike Huntley who has been reviewed on this very forum...CLICK to be strong enough for using on hardwoods. Older Japanese saws failed in this because they have large and brittle teeth and tended to snap off. The Japanese use them mostly on softwood. This is not so much the case these days as most are made so as this doesn't happens.

I often show this picture (sorry!) as an example of its ability to cut hard boxwood....

....so I think this gives a good indication as to why I rate it so much.

I have a spare blade..."just in case"...I don't see it being used any time soon!

Cheers

Jim