is there an alternative to felder combi machines?

[jeffinfrance]

i'm thinking of sending my cf741spro back, has anyone got any experience of other brands? robland or smc for example.

jeff

 

[L Harding]

I have a fleder TS and SCM PT and bandsaw, Firstly id say both makes are extremely good and i am very happy with them all. The felder is slightly better then the SCM's but they are from the SCM 'minimax' range, which is actually more comparable on price with felders hammer machines, so you would expect this. Having said that the felder has required a little fettling on the sliding carriage etc, but i think this is more the mature of the type of machine compared to say a bandsaw.

May i ask why you are unhappy with your felder?

luke

 

[jeffinfrance]

hi luke,

the problems started as soon as i sent the final payment.

delivery was a week late (you can get quite a lot made in a week). delivery was a farce. initial "comissioning" was a joke.
it took 4 weeks of complaining to get another tchnician to arrive to set the machine up properly........and it still isn't

i bought this machine to be more productive and accurate in my work......so far i am a month behind.

the sliding carriage is my main gripe now as the last technician did resolve a lot of the initial problems.

to me it seems a design fault not making these machines cast of iron. all the adjustment needed to compensate for the cheap manufacture is next to impossible to get within tolerances.

granted, if i had space for separates i would not be having the problems with table alignment on the spindle moulder, but the panel saw would still be next to useless.

i'm just going down now to take pictures for the service centre in austria, but i'm at my wits end.

i've got 7 000 euros of work waiting to finish to be invoiced in my workshop and my wife cant afford to go shopping. i really dont think companies like felder have any idea of the impact poor service costs the little guy!

jeff

 

[ondablade]

A tough situation that Jeff, i hope you get sorted pronto.

You probably haven't got the time to get into the nitty gritty, but should this be the case this is a very good guide book (it's all step by step with photos) for Felder set up - it's by a US guy on FOG (felder owner's group) in the US. http://www.cafepress.com/davidbest.14337605

I have a copy and could dig out info for you if by any chance this might help.

I've no experience of either, but the SCM Minimax stuff seems judging by the posts on several forums to be regarded as being at a similar level to the Felder or possible the Hammer stuff.

 

[jeffinfrance]

thanks ian,

95 dollars!!!!!!! i'll send felder the bill.

bit worrying that someone has written a book on it! i'm obviously not alone.

anyone got experience using scm?

jeff

 

[ondablade]

Two thoughts Jeff. (1) Felder seems generally to be good stuff, and capable of doing an excellent job if set up right. (2) it would probably be a lot faster and cheaper to get your machine set up right rather than to change it. My instinct would be to concentrate on getting Felder to move their asses and get somebody competent to you with enough time to do the job right.

You probably know most of this, but as an alternative there's a few really expert guys (Mac C, Brian L etc) on Felder machine set up on the Yahoo Felder owner's group http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/f ... g/messages - it was another member that wrote the manual. They tend to be very helpful too if very much short and to the point - the focus is primarily service/tech issues on machines and i've seen them sort lots of set up problems for people. Might it be worth your while joining and posting your specific situation and problems? Chances are that if you set your issues out clearly you would at least get some good advice.

Felder manuals are it seems pretty well known for providing minimal set up information, my Hammer manuals certainly have little or nothing to say on the nitty gritty of the subject. That's why the above manual was written - it sets out i think on lots of data that Felder don't publish.

On your Minimax interest. There's a fair amount comes up on these sites. While as ever its of mixed quality a search would at least throw up some views on the kit:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/search.ph ... id=5822064
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/index.php
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/C ... e_Saw.html

 

[jeffinfrance]

having just read through those forums, my head says thats what i should do. my heart says i should make them pick it up........but i did the research before and on paper at least, the felder is better than the smc and the robland.

as altendorf only make saws and martin don'tt make a combi, until i move to a bigger house with a bigger barn, it looks like i have the best product on the market.

doesn't say much about progress!

 

[mr grimsdale]

Mine's a Minimax lab 300 (with extra long sliding table).
I have to say it is excellent. Very well made, very accurate, easy to set up and use.
Had one minor breakdown with failed capacitor (or something) which SCM diagnosed over the phone and sent replacement by following day.
It's got one drawback - the spindle well is small and you have to take off heads to wind it down.
The switch positions are slightly annoying - you can't easily see them under the end of the table and the cut-out buttons aren't easy to get at.
No fancy micro-adjusters or anything. It's fairly simple.
The faces of the fences weren't too flat.
A few niggles then, but I'm glad I got it.

 

[moz]

Jeff,

I don't think your experience is all that uncommon. My CF741SPro was very late and I lost a lot of time during more remedial visits from the engineers than i can even remember. In the end, I knuckled down and did a lot of adjustments myself, managing to get the slider performing much better than two of their engineers. I now have the machine I ought to have had in the first place. It seems to me that the engineers are working on the mistaken assumption that they are reasonably well set up in the first place. PM or email me if your having trouble with the slider. I don't pretend to know everything about these machines but I may just hit on the problem your having.

John

 

[ondablade]

A more personal view Jeff. At risk of sounding prescriptive my thinking on this subject is that there is no way a manufacturer of equipment selling at the sort of price points of Felder and especially Hammer can afford to be anything other than a bit stingy about tech support - they have to get it right at the factory if they are to make any money.

If they don't (and discounting means they are probably under pressure on margins these days) then they probably are not set up to get heavily stuck in in the field - especially not if they are experiencing what in effect would be manufacturing quality problems.

Reading between the lines at FOG it seems not to be unusual to have some problems initially (alignment and sometimes electrics), but on the other hand the stuff seems to be very good once it's sorted.

My personal strategy (i've just bought new Hammer separates which i've not even used yet - so it's still just a plan) is that as John has decided i feel i just can't hope to function without biting the bullet to put the time in to learn how to set up and service it myself. (at the level of basic adjustments and maintenance anyway - an electronics problem might be another deal) This is why i bought the manual.

Even if the machine is right day one it can't stay that way forever, and i don't want to always be on the hook for the time and cost of getting a guy out from Felder.

It's no particular criticism of Felder in that most service reps are in this situation, but I've fairly limited confidence that a rep would be in a position or of a mind to put in the sort of time and care needed to get a really precise day 1 set up anyway.

In the end it depends on what appeals, what's wrong, and how you feel about it. It's got to be important to get Felder involved from day one to get them behind the eight ball, especially if there are problems which are not fixable by simple adjustments. On the other hand while theoretically a maker should sort it 100% after delivery sometimes (if the issues are not that serious) it's not worth the hassle holding out in an effort to extract the last bit in these situations..

 

[beech1948]

Jeff,

I'm a long time user of a Cf741 with most of the extras.

I think that its unbeatable.

I too had some issues with it upon first acquisition but the Felder paid for service to set it up was worth every penny and I got a knowledgable and skilled set up tech.

I don't think that SCM/ROJEK or most of the others even come close and all have significant issues.

The only machines possibly better than Felder are Knapp; also Swiss.

I would make a fuss with your local supplier, plus a complaint to the factory and an email and letter to the CEO. Do it all at the same time.

Making the same fuss to the FOC may also help as Felder do observe what is being said.

By the way my cf741 is the most accurate machine I have ever used or seen and it has improved the speed of my woodworking both by its accuracy and by the sequencing I do for production.

Good luck
regards
Alan

 

[jeffinfrance]

thanks ian and alan for the confidence boost, i think i will stick with it.

the most annoying thing is i paid 500euros for the set up and 7 weeks later, it's still not set up.

i sent photos to the factory yesterday, so hopefully they can prime the next engineer properly before he arrives.

i know i have to learn how to do all this myself, i'm expecting to teach my boys how to use it (the oldest is three and a half). but i am appalled at the time it has cost me so far and i simply cant afford another week or two to do it all myself now.

john, i'll send you the pics i sent felder this evening....no weekends off for me....off to work now!

cheers fellas,

jeff

 

[lavalette]

Hi Jeff

Out of interest, where in France are you and did you buy your machine from the dealer in Toulouse.

I ask because I am thinking about a machine, either a Knapp or a Felder and I live in SW France

 

[jeffinfrance]

hi lavalette,

certainly not from the dealer in france. he has been the spanner in the works fro day one!

credit to felder, they have tried their best to repair the damage done by the dealer and it is close to how i was led to believe it would be. i am going to stick with it.

where are you in the gers? so am i, you might be just down the road.

pm me if you fancy having a look and i can give you a few felder pointers.

all the best,

jeff

jeff

 

[lavalette]

7 km south of Marciac, between Auch & Tarbes. Where abouts are you?

 

[jeffinfrance]

sent you a pm lavalette

jeff

 

[tjwoodms]

the problem with felder is they sell the machines as high quality and they are not I find the bodies to be very tinny and the castings quite poor.

I recently got call to look at a hammer combi with surfacing problems the felder engineers had changed the outfeed table with no joy and then spent another two days playing with it to try and get it to run correctly. The problem turned out to be a alignment issue and took 15 mins with a good straight egde to sort. I couldnt believe the felder engineer hadnt spotted and sorted it

 

[ondablade]

There's been a few of those kind of stories about on the Felder Owners Group in the US too - noises of people needing to set up infeed rolls properly on the planers and the sliding tables on saws at times, not to mention issues with motor control electronics.

The common denominator that brings them to light seems to be a combination of a non-technical owner, and subsequent problems in getting an experienced service guy to visit - as before when margins are tight (as at this sort of price point - and then discounted) you can't willy nilly fly people around Europe or the US and stay in business.

You hear stories too of service guys when they do arrive either being very rushed, and not being all that trained and experienced.

This makes perfect quality out the factory door critical if issues are to be avoided, and the signs are that while Felder quality basically good that they do have the odd (mostly) assembly and test screw up.

What does seem only very rarely to come up though are manufacturing errors or poor engineering - as in bum parts or poor performance.

In their defence (i've been responsible for tech support for a machinery manufacturer in Europe and the US) i think that the Hammer stuff in particular while by no means your 2 ton cast iron monster of yore is remarkably competent and well designed stuff at a very accessible price - with a reasonable semblance of support behind it. It seems to more than hold its own at its price point.

I'd some problems getting sorted locally when buying my Hammer machines for example, but when i called the factory they had me on to a competent English speaking guy in a shot.

Hammer stuff seems to be mostly sold without a commissioning package anyway (don't know about Felder) - the expectation is that you will handle your own. There's a charge if you want it, but the sales guys probably don't highlight its availability for fear of losing the business. (it bumps the cost up)

My impression is that while we're inclined to demand 'man on the spot' service that it's not that feasible at this level, and that Felder/Hammer's model is to be in a position to support the owner in problem solving. Probably only coming in hands on when the problem is identified as clearly warranty and needing specialist expertise. This is feasible if the customer is technically on the ball and communicates well, but risks problems due to lack of good info if he/she can't or won't get competently stuck in. i.e. the factory will not be keen to send somebody until they see the need validated.

Certainly compared to lots of the Eastern stuff most of which can be (a) riddled with materials and manufacturing faults, and (b) is often sold out of a shoe box warehouse with no support at all it's not bad.

There was a lot to be said for the scene back in the day when your manufacturer presumably (?) had a very experienced service and tech guy permanently on the road and assigned to your area. But machines were much more expensive back then, and labour a lot cheaper. Which with staff turnover probably explains why so many service guys are pretty inexperienced and rushed too.

I guess in the end it's pay your money, and take your pick. Pay gazillions for Martin or Altendorf and (maybe) you'll get this old style service. Pay time and expenses for your service guy and he'll camp in your backyard.

The bottom line though is that most of the companies using the high service business model at lower price points are surely long gone, or are now just brands bought by the shoe box companies????

What i think Felder could probably do a lot better would be to communicate their service arrangements and manage customer expectations a lot better. (i.e. more overtly) There are probably good reasons for what they do, but in the end the issue is perhaps the gap between customer expectation that a bottomless pool of resources should be available (which is no doubt conditioned by the old style model, and also by the one sided attitude that if you don't demand it you won't get it) and the reality...

 

[tjwoodms]

There's been a few of those kind of stories about on the Felder Owners Group in the US too - noises of people

I guess in the end it's pay your money, and take your pick. Pay gazillions for Martin or Altendorf and (maybe) you'll get this old style service. Pay time and expenses for your service guy and he'll camp in your backyard.

I think your pretty much bang on.
It costs alot to keep an engineer on the road
but even altendorfs build quality seems to have suffered of late with some trully awfull design changes like the 3 bearings on cams in the tilt mech

but these days everything is driven by cost so the product suffers.

in my last few years with wadkin there was alot of talk about reducing spare parts support to push people into buying new equipment. but it would have been too little too late

 

[Mike H]

I have a Felder FB 400 bandsaw, a Hammer B3 Saw/Spindle(tilting) and a A31 Planer thicknesser.

I did have to chase them so that they finally sent a proper engineer to commission and do a small mod. Some of the chaps they sent were not really up to the job.

I am very happy with the kit, it has proved reliable and very accurate.

I have had a variety of kit over the years, but this is much better. I went for a separate planer since it makes it much more usable than a combi.

I have some of their tooling and it is first class.



Mike

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