Is it legal/ethical to extract fine dust outside?

[Vinn]

Hi,

Apologies if this has already been discussed. Lots of posts are advocating the extraction of fine dust to the outside air.

This seems ideal for me as my workshop is nowhere near any houses. Also my workshop is a raised wooden structure with fresh air circulating underneath (completely open).

But is it legal to extract outside and what happens to the dust. I guess in terms of ppm, it becomes so 'diluted' that it's no longer dangerous.

Just wondering....

Vinn

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Vinn

Firstly, welcome to the forum.

In the conditions that you describe I can't see anything wrong, but I'm sure somebody more knowledgeable will be along soon.

Cheers
Neil

PS Good question.

 

[Scrit]

Lots of posts are advocating the extraction of fine dust to the outside air.

Hi Vinn

I'd say the problem with extracting wood dust into the outside air is that the Environmental Health Officer at your local council might view it as a potential environmental nuisance (wood dust is potentially carcenogenic and some dusts are potentially toxic to plants and animals). If you are a trade woodworker then you'd not be allowed to do so.

Scrit

 

[ike]

But is it legal to extract outside and what happens to the dust. I guess in terms of ppm, it becomes so 'diluted' that it's no longer dangerous.

Sounds like your 'inside' is 'outside' and therefore 'extraction' is in a different context to that referred to by any law. Yes I think the dust will disperse quickly enough that it wouldn't be hazardous except maybe at close quarters to the extractor exhaust. Given you don't have very close neighbours - no different to having a good bonfire.

Ike

 

[Harbo]

Our local council will not allow bonfires (it provides green bags to fill with green waste) nor allow the farmers to stubble burn!
But we are on a 2 weekly cycle for rubbish/recycling which is a real pain!

Rod

 

[Anonymous]

Yes Env Health might not like it as scrit says.
Also could be a reason for imposing planning application if you are earning anything in your shed, which means business rates etc etc. They tend not to bother, or you can get away with, very small enterprises which don't have any environmental or other effects on the neighbourhood.

cheers
Jacob

 

[Vinn]

Thanks for the replies. This forum seems like a goldmine of info.

I only do woodwork as a hobby.

The more I think about it I realise that it's no different really from builders/joiners/Tommy Walsh, etc using power tools/sanders outdoors - a very common sight. And just how dangerous are car-exhaust fumes I wonder? All vented to the atmosphere.

Actually between this post and my original one I had to rout (handheld) a roundover on a piece of ply, and after trying to work out ways of clamping the extractor hose to try to catch the output from the router, I had a change of mind (probably 'cos I've read so much about dust hazards lately) and simply took the whole lot outside and did it there on a workmate.

I should add that I live in the country and there are only a couple of houses within a half-mile radius of me.

Vinn

 

[CHJ]

....I should add that I live in the country and there are only a couple of houses within a half-mile radius of me.
Vinn

In that context Vin, you should be able to do it with a clear conscience, roving and bailing a nearby field of hay or harvesting a field of rape seed or corn will produce more tonnage of dust in the local air in an hour than you are likely to do in a lifetime of woodwork.

 

[engineer one]

i think you should look at it in a different way.
all extraction, except certain kinds of cyclones, will by there design send fine dust into the air. the question is how you are attempting to deal with it.

all extractors need an exhaust. if the main aim is to move the dust then it is wrong, whereas if it is at the end of the process then it is the movement of air after normal extraction.

remember when you change the bag on your hoover you produce fine dust so what's the difference??

paul :wink:

 

[Vinn]

....I should add that I live in the country and there are only a couple of houses within a half-mile radius of me.
Vinn

In that context Vin, you should be able to do it with a clear conscience, roving and bailing a nearby field of hay or harvesting a field of rape seed or corn will produce more tonnage of dust in the local air in an hour than you are likely to do in a lifetime of woodwork.

Yes, good point. I had to cycle through just such a dust-cloud towards the end of last summer.

Thanks for all your input. I'm certainly leaning towards venting the fine stuff to the outside world.

 

[kafkaian]

What gets me, is that in general people come on here with very honest intentions to find out their position in good faith. However, having worried like mad that you're not upsetting the neighbours and causing environmental damage, Councils, from experience, invariably only tackle easy targets - like DIYers and homeowners, leaving serial polluters and nuisances to get away with murder.

It's great to see how concerned we all are, and I worried the other day that I my outside paint spraying might be causing concern, but this is so heavily weighted in one direction that it makes my blood boil.

At times I become so over cautious that I end up not doing anything.

One thing's for sure; DO NOT take advice as read from the Council over the phone, only in writing. I have a long story about an issue when I purchased my home and the subsequent denials which left me out of pocket. In legislation, maladministration, corruption and other Council anomalies are acceptable practices. If an officer lies to you, you can do NOTHING!

 

[Dave S]

But we are on a 2 weekly cycle for rubbish/recycling which is a real pain!

Please don't misunderstand this question - I ask out of curiosity rather than as a challenge.
I wonder why you find it to be a problem? I see a lot of people in other areas complaining about this, but in my area we have been on a 2 weekly cycle for a few years with no problems and no-one seems to complain. Is there some variation on how councils operate their 2 weekly collections?

Dave

 

[Dave S]

Hi Vinn,

I think in your situation I would attempt to trap what I can but wouldn't feel bad about letting the rest vent to the atmosphere. I quite often saw or rout outside in which case I attach the vac, but the vac vents outside. We certainly get more dust from the farm across the road than I could ever produce.

Dave

 

[Wanlock Dod]

Vinn,

This would really be the same principle as a fume cupboard that a chemist might use, they extract the toxic gases outdoors where they won't kill the workers (usually described as LEV, Local Exhaust Ventilation). I understand that there have been some cases where these installations have caused (minor local) pollution issues, but only where really toxic chemicals are being used. As you have identified, it is the dilution afforded by the air outside that will (most likely) cause your emissions to be unnoticeable. You'll probably want to collect the bigger bits anyway, if you didn't then it's more likely that it might cause a "littering" issue. If you were being regulated (as Scrit mentioned a commercial enterprise woudl be) it would most likely be a case of ensuring that you never breached a maximum threshold for wood dust in air, in which case demonstrating that you have complied is probably the most expensive aspect.

Cheers,

Dod

 

[Pecker]

Hi vinn welcome to the forum.

I speak firstly as a professional then as someonr with common sense.

Technically, even as a hobbyist you shouldn't extract to the outside without a filter, I was desperatly searching for an article I've seen but can't find it. If I as a pro vented myworkshop outside I would get done. BUT lets use a little common sense.

1) are you really going to extract so much it becoame a nuisence?
2) Who's goling to tell them?
3) So what? THe council would have to give you a warning first anyway.
4)Go on, providing you're not being silly who is really going to care?
5) However... noise is another issue!

Enjoy your hobby fella.
Kind regards
Woody

 

[Vinn]

Just to make it clear, it was only fine particles I would extract to outside.

I'm thinking about fitting a coarser filter (to aid airflow) and maybe site the whole extractor outside (or maybe just the filter bag), so that the fine stuff that gets through the filter will end up in the air, not in the workshop.

I would concentrate on extracting as much from the source as poss. I also wear a Trend AirAce.

I was thinking about a ceiling-mounted unit but was put off after reading the very excellent "Controlling Dust in the Workshop" by Rick Peters, where he says that you shouldn't have that much dust floating around in the air in the first place and also that they tend to contribute further to moving dust around.

5) However... noise is another issue!

In my previous house I had a workshop in a room that the previous owner had used for band practice - 13" solid brick walls, concrete floor, concrete ceiling (it was below the kitchen in a sort of half-basement) and twin 4" thick doors (i.e. 8" thick + the gap between them). I could go down there at midnight, start up my loudest machine and nobody else in the world could hear a thing - brilliant! Unfortunately I now have a wooden shed, but it's much bigger.

Vinn

 

[Pecker]

I was thinking about a ceiling-mounted unit but was put off after reading the very excellent "Controlling Dust in the Workshop" by Rick Peters, where he says that you shouldn't have that much dust floating around in the air in the first place and also that they tend to contribute further to moving dust around.

Vinn

I haven't read the book, but I can assure you no matter how much filtration you have on machines, some will ALWAYS escape, therefore to my mind anything that helps collect dust such as the ceiling mounted ones, can't really be a bad thing can it?

I have today been working in a high tech Aerospace factory, There they have a work shop that carries out sawing and sanding. They are extraction systems everywhere and I do mean every where. Attached to every tool, and bench. There is also a big circular extration vent in the ceiling with a system designed to keep the room at a positive air pressure to reduce dust. Yet the guys have to wear overalls, because they still get dusty. Which just goes to show you will always get airbourne dust.

Woody

 

[Vinn]

I haven't read the book, but I can assure you no matter how much filtration you have on machines, some will ALWAYS escape, therefore to my mind anything that helps collect dust such as the ceiling mounted ones, can't really be a bad thing can it?
Woody

Yes, I get what your saying. I think he was actually saying that the money could be better spent elsewhere. I think a lot of people (myself included for a while) might think that sticking an extractor on the ceiling would sort all their dust problems out in one go. Which it won't.

Vinn

 

[Scrit]

As it's currrently quite warm there're one thing which might have been overlooked, here. Warmth. Extracting outside will also extract all your warm air - great in summer but possibly not so wonderful in January

Scrit

 

[engineer one]

popular woodworking, did some tests last year, and their view was that the roof mounted machines were actually valuable for the residual dust that you have after working.

it is suggested in most places that to see what effect something has, is to ensure the room is as clean as possible, make sure a specific area is totally clean, then do some work, using whatever extraction or collection that you have, and then the following morning, check the clean area. no matter how good you collection/extraction the area will be covered in a layer of dust that has been suspended in the air and now settled out.

the roof mounted cleaners are to solve some or part of that problem, which is why they are put on timers to work after you have finished.


the other thing from the pop wood tests was the more powerful machines tend to increase dust in the air rather than collect it, because the push more through the filters. :?
paul :wink: