Incised letter carving, question about depth of cut

[wobblycogs]

I'm currently working my way through Chris Pyes book on letter carving and I can't help feeling I'm incising too deeply. The book recommends a chisel angle of 60 degrees which I'm fine with (I've even cut myself a guide block) but the resulting trench looks too deep to my eye.

I suspect the problem might be the chisel I'm using. Looking at the book I think he's using a double bevelled straight chisel whereas I'm using a single bevel chisel back down. I'm using a regular bench chisel at the moment but my one straight carving chisel is also single bevelled.

My guess is that in the examples shown in the book the bevel on the chisel is acting to reduce the angle of the cut wall to more like 45 degrees.

 

[niall Y]

I'm currently working my way through Chris Pyes book on letter carving and I can't help feeling I'm incising too deeply. The book recommends a chisel angle of 60 degrees which I'm fine with (I've even cut myself a guide block) but the resulting trench looks too deep to my eye.

I suspect the problem might be the chisel I'm using. Looking at the book I think he's using a double bevelled straight chisel whereas I'm using a single bevel chisel back down. I'm using a regular bench chisel at the moment but my one straight carving chisel is also single bevelled.

My guess is that in the examples shown in the book the bevel on the chisel is acting to reduce the angle of the cut wall to more like 45 degrees.

Not something I'm too familiar with, despite having done some letter carving in the past . Charles Hayward in his book with William Wheeler, suggests 55 degrees as anything shallower won't give bold enough shadows.
If you are using a strong raking light whilst carving it might be worth trying out a test panel in a similar place to where it will eventually be positioned. This will allow you to see if it can be read well enough. then you can tweak the angle to suit.

 

[wobblycogs]

Thanks, I'm just learning at the moment so only producing test pieces. I've got good artificial and natural lighting in the workshop though. I'm going to try and find something with a 60 angle at the end and test my cuts. Looking again I suspect I might be raising the chisel as I strike causing the cut to be too steep. Having said that, following the instructions in the book I've produced some of the nicest cuts I've ever made. I consider myself to be fairly good with a chisel but this has taken it to the next level.

 

[yetloh]

Thanks, I'm just learning at the moment so only producing test pieces. I've got good artificial and natural lighting in the workshop though. I'm going to try and find something with a 60 angle at the end and test my cuts. Looking again I suspect I might be raising the chisel as I strike causing the cut to be too steep. Having said that, following the instructions in the book I've produced some of the nicest cuts I've ever made. I consider myself to be fairly good with a chisel but this has taken it to the next level.

There's nothing quite like that feeling when you suddenly feel it's ccoming together and you have finally got the knack. Some pictures of the end result would be nice.

Jim

 

[johnnyb]

I went through this process and found the circular cuts were trickiest to master. I only really mastered stuff after watching his videos. I sold them on years ago though. I found the learning process very enjoyable.. the circular letters relied on a twisting slicing action. and approximately the right size gouges.

 

[Citracal]

Are you making a central cut and then doing an angled cut on either side? No idea if that's the method you're using but that how I've been shown how to do it. A double bevel to make the central line and then a regular or double bevel to them form the v cut. Perhaps you're making your first central line too deep, I would start doing them shallow and then work toward a bolder relief as you get more comfortable with the process.

 

[wobblycogs]

That's some lovely neat work.

I am cutting as you described, centre cut followed by angle cuts to each side. I've attached a photo of one of my practice pieces. The bottom row is all cut to 60 degrees and top row was more of an experiment. I started with shallow angles on the left and then got progressively steeper towards the middle. I like the look of the middle of the top row but that's a 50 degree cut at most.

I tried cutting serifs yesterday, they are hard to get looking good.

 

[gasman]

I do this quite a lot. How deep the trench is obviously depends on the font size. I have found the easiest way is to print out the actual letters on labels - then stick that to the wood then cut through the label into the wood. I use a couple of chisels with 25 degree bevels, a scalpel with 11 and 15 blades and a few carving 'sweeps' one of which has a maybe 5mm radius curve and does the lions share of the curved letters. The above technique takes all the pain of spacing, sizing and orientation out of the equation. Good luck!

 

[stuckinthemud]

It seems to me that the trial cuts are too wide, resulting in correspondingly deeper cuts. The hardest part of letter carving is the calligraphy. My last lettering commission took twice as long to design and draw than it did to actually carve. Practice on printed-out alphabets/letters/words if you need to, but it can be quite a tricky technique to master in its own right.

 

[wobblycogs]

The cuts are 6mm wide by 30mm tall. The width is what's suggested in the book, the height is the largest chisel I currently have.

I'm certainly going to print off some text and give that a try. The book is hardcore, it suggests you can use stencils and the like but from the outset the focus is on trying to layout by hand.

 

[johnnyb]

just on this subject I once visited Alrewas memorial arboretum. they have large stones with all the older casualties on obviously done on a machine. there's also additions done after these were put up by hand. the later additions were strikingly more attractive than the machine made ones. have a look if you ever go.

 

[woodspiral]

I've studied letter carving with two people - Michael Rust in Kent and Martin Wenham in Anglesea. Both of them say the way the chisels are prepared is key. You have to grind both sides of the chisel so they are very shallow - I can't remember what angle precisely, but probably around 15 degrees, then the chisel must be razor sharp. Martin took my chisel and said "this is all wrong, may I?" and he just ground it down so it was very shallow. It's almost like you are carving with a knife, the chisel is very slim at the tip.

Michael had the most ingenious sharpening system - it was a circular leather strop powered by an old washing machine motor. I'm not sure if either of them are still teaching. Martin produces two volumes of letter carving advice, which I think you could buy off him. At some point I'd like to go visit both of them again. If that fails you could try the Lettering Arts Trust - they run classes each year. It's hard to figure out from a book what to do and when I looked (which was some time ago) there wasn't very much detailed advice on YouTube. I did a lot of carving after the classes, then I've had a pause of a few years due to house and workshop moves. I'll be getting back into it shortly. With the right technique the serifs are easy. I agree the curves are harder, but with practice they become quite easy too.

Both Martin and Michael are massively against using computer fonts which look mechanical and the spacing (kerning) is usually wrong. For any work, they would design new letters to suit the piece - often using double pencils to form the widths (i.e. two pencils joined with rubber bands), then making them more precise. Tracing over them with tracing paper for final versions, then transferring the letter arrangements (made with cut'n'paste) using Saral paper which you transfer using a scribing tool - like a small ball bearing on the point of a rod with a handle. This transfers the wax or whatever it is on the Saral paper onto the wood. So much easier than sticking paper onto the wood. Once the design is done, then the letters are cut. If you google these chaps work, you will find some beautiful examples.

Good luck
Woodspiral

 

[woodspiral]

I see Martin used lockdown to produce a book!

https://amzn.eu/d/5H5bWyO
Here is a film about his work. You can see some of his chisel work in the film:

 

[stuckinthemud]

I have the Chris Pye book, you need to take what works for you, every carver has their own method. I also studied calligraphy. The advice on not using computer fonts is good advice. If you are in any way serious about letter carving, make some dipping pens and play around with them. The strokes the pen makes goes a long way to explain the cuts you need to make with a blade. When you understand the mechanics of how a letter is formed, the carving is a lot easier to get your head around. Lolly pop sticks and poster paint are a cheap and easy solution but a starter calligraphy pen set will come with a how-to book…

 

[peterw3035]

I follow David Fisher on WordPress, he carries out some really fantastic free form letter carving, cut with a penknife. He also carves some amazing bird bowls. Have a look Exterior Sign in White Oak: Finished
I find his work really inspiring.