HSS Plane blades

[Racers]

Found these on AliExpress, 2" HSS for US $11.39.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hand-Pl ... 5538&tpp=1

Look interesting probably over kill for our soft timbers but for Teak etc might be worth it.
I have bought both flavours of the 2" blades just under £17.

Pete

 

[Racers]

Well they arrived but it seems like I ordered the wrong size HSS blade, anyone want a HSS blade for a No3?

I have reordered a 2" HSS.

Pete

 

[bugbear]

They look laminated - are they? How was the flatness/finish on the back?

BugBear

 

[Phil Pascoe]

How was the flatness??? Oh, no... #-o #-o #-o

 

[Racers]

I haven’t had the normal blade out of the packaging yet, the HSS one looks good and flat.
I might take the steel one in to work and see if they can test the hardness.

Pete

Aargh! just taken the steel one out the packet and it’s got a big hollow about 5mm from the edge I will try and get it surface ground.

Definitely laminated BB.

 

[D_W]

Wait, the hollow is 5mm from the edge right now, but you can get the edge working without issue?

Leave it like that if that's correct. If the hollow extends into the edge, then that's bad luck.

I've had many blades from the other side of the world and none have been dead flat, but I like the ones that are hollow where it doesn't reach the edge. From time to time, it does reach the edge, but the old 80 grit on the PSA lap takes care of it quickly.

 

[Racers]

The main hollow is about 5mm from the edge but a shallower bit extends out to about 2mm from the edge.
The blade is 3.09mm one side and 3.12mm the other side, the edge with the hollow.
The hollow is 2.97mm deep so if I get ground it should be just under 3mm thick, so no adjuster problems.
Working at a large university gives me access to some handy things!

Pete

 

[custard]

I wonder if they're the same as the "Samurai" replacement irons that were sold in the late 70's and 80's?

They were laminated, none too flat, and I seem to recall (although I'm not absolutely certain) that they also only went up to 2" width. I've also got a vague memory of them being HSS.

That was before the "hand tool revolution", before A2, PM-VII, and all the rest. It didn't prevent a generation of makers like Alan Peters or Ian Kirby using their bog standard Record and Marples tools to create astonishing furniture in difficult timbers like Macassar Ebony and Rio Rosewood, but I guess it's only human nature to always crave something better, and in that era "something better" generally meant the mystique of Japanese tools.

 

[custard]

By the way, I had one of the Samurai irons and it was an absolutely superb blade, just it took days of work to flatten it to where it formed a shaving proof seal with the cap iron!

 

[D_W]

The main hollow is about 5mm from the edge but a shallower bit extends out to about 2mm from the edge.
The blade is 3.09mm one side and 3.12mm the other side, the edge with the hollow.
The hollow is 2.97mm deep so if I get ground it should be just under 3mm thick, so no adjuster problems.
Working at a large university gives me access to some handy things!

Pete

So this hollow is on one side, and not in the middle?

Of all things, I guess surface grinding is least likely to heat a high speed steel blade.

 

[Racers]

It’s the laminated blade that has the hollow the HSS one looks lovely and flat.
It’s a big black area that has not been ground as all.
I will try and get the hardness tested.

Pete

 

[bugbear]

By the way, I had one of the Samurai irons and it was an absolutely superb blade, just it took days of work to flatten it to where it formed a shaving proof seal with the cap iron!

IIRC the Samurai blades were a very high carbon layer (not HSS) laminated onto softer iron backing.

It was the hardness, combined with a tendency for the bimetal construct to warp under heat treatment, that made flattening a bit of chore. (hard steel, large hollow)

I bought the blade that Axminster used later - a "smoothcut". This was also high carbon laminated onto soft iron, but I think they surface ground it at the factory.

Very good iron - it's in my smoothing-tuned Bailey right now.

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

The main hollow is about 5mm from the edge but a shallower bit extends out to about 2mm from the edge.
The blade is 3.09mm one side and 3.12mm the other side, the edge with the hollow.
The hollow is 2.97mm deep so if I get ground it should be just under 3mm thick, so no adjuster problems.
Working at a large university gives me access to some handy things!

Pete

So this hollow is on one side, and not in the middle?

Of all things, I guess surface grinding is least likely to heat a high speed steel blade.

Any decent surface grinder has full "flood" cooling, so MOST unlikely IMHO.

BugBear

 

[Dovetaildave]

[quote

Very good iron - it's in my smoothing-tuned Bailey right now.

BugBear[/quote]

Same here in my No4, I might have one in my No5 but I cant find it at the Mo.
Thinner than my other thicker "0" and "A" replacements, so a lot less effort required to get them to fit the plane bodies.

I'm interested to hear how the HSS works out, I like the HSS chisels I picked up a few years ago in Taiwan.
Regards,
Dave

 

[D_W]

It’s the laminated blade that has the hollow the HSS one looks lovely and flat.
It’s a big black area that has not been ground as all.
I will try and get the hardness tested.

Pete

That'll be interesting. I guess you could contend hardness doesn't matter, but it's always something interesting to learn.

 

[Racers]

Turns out the surface grinder is out of action!
But I am getting the hardness tested!


Pete

 

[Racers]

Problems with the hardness test, its not giving clear indentations some plastic deformation around the indentation which makes getting a reading difficult.
It was coming out between 600-700 Vickers which is 49-52 Rockwell C.

Looks like I will have to do some lapping and get it retested.

Pete

 

[essexalan]

I have the Smoothcut in 2 5/8" which I think was the same as the Samurai and possibly the same as the blades offered by Stoo. RC was quoted at 65 and they are not HSS
Did need flattening but sharpen up well to a very good dependable edge.

 

[D_W]

I have the Smoothcut in 2 5/8" which I think was the same as the Samurai and possibly the same as the blades offered by Stoo. RC was quoted at 65 and they are not HSS
Did need flattening but sharpen up well to a very good dependable edge.

I believe they all originate from tsunesaburo, and are just hitachi rikizai (prelaminated from the factory, intended for knives in most cases). I think they're blue #1, but it wouldn't matter whether they were that or blue 2. They are the best smoothing irons I have ever used anywhere and of any type in a western plane.

They fail like the best vintage irons I've used except compared to a very good vintage sweetheart stanley or a triangle logo laminated, it takes 1 1/2+ times as long, and they continue to leave a line free surface all the way through their dullness cycle. Almost nothing modern does that.

I tried to get stu to urge Tsunesaburo to make them in greater thicknesses so that they'd be drop-in for premium planes, but I don't think tsunesaburo was interested, because he did at one point work with them on coming up with more irons of that type, but somewhere that hit a dead end.

I believe they actually hit their 65 claimed hardness or very very close, which isn't always the case with japanese stuff (and often when a maker does hit that, the iron or chisel is brittle and temperamental when being honed with any harsh abrasive).

 

[D_W]

Problems with the hardness test, its not giving clear indentations some plastic deformation around the indentation which makes getting a reading difficult.
It was coming out between 600-700 Vickers which is 49-52 Rockwell C.

Looks like I will have to do some lapping and get it retested.

Pete

Put it on an oilstone. If it refuses to be abraded but is definitely HSS, that gives you a hurdle of 61-62 or so. Could be anything above that, but some judgement will tell you how far (anything approaching 65 will refuse to do anything other than be burnished on an oilstone unless it is the plainest of plain steels - and that won't be).