History of Whetstone Use

[cotedupy]

But it could be, if i infer from your mention of impurities, they just aren't cutting as fast for reasons that have nothing to do with relative fineness.

Yep, this is exactly my take on how they're working. Some Idwals can finish razors very finely indeed because they're so hard (notably harder than CFs) and relatively slow, but under a scope they're certainly not as pure, compact or fine as a translucent ark.

Though there is variability in them too. I found these two at a salvage yard near Belfast last Christmas, the larger stone on top is probably my favourite Idwal I've had, it's really quite quick and right at the coarsest end the spectrum, not quite as fast as a Washita or Turkish, but getting there. The smaller stone is fine and much more like a hard ark.

One of the best cutting japanese stones I ever had was a plain green "narutaki tomae" stone coming from a hardware store in japan.

Funny you should say that, I bought a relatively cheap 'Narutaki Tomae' a couple of weeks ago that is indeed a very fast stone. More kiita coloured than green, but perhaps of a similar ilk to yours...

 

[D_W]

Kiita is generally a faster and softer stone, but often sold as being exceptionally fine. It's not that there aren't any, but they are usually less fine than sellers suggest. The color is fantastic. I had just a few buff colored stones that had excellent cutting characteristics. Same with black or gray or bluish - the odds go down. Plus, you can't get the visual interest on a dark gray stone of seeing the iron flower.

Newer stones are not being labeled that accurately from what I can tell. if a stone is loaded with bright purple stamps, especially if it says something from hatanaka or maruka labeling....well, I guess anything is fair game these days.

Your top stone has the coloration pattern of a dalmore - I may have had one of those, but don't recall - same with tams. I had one tam and still have a few fingerstones, but the labeled fine tams always went for several hundred dollars on ebay.

I'll take microscope pictures of the work my remaining idwall does at some point on the same razor as a dan's black. That'll sort out the fineness question in a hurry.

 

[dannyr]

I just haven't had enough idwalls to compare, but my two - and now I have one, i sold the smaller and finer one that I have to a shaver.....give the impression that they're cutting more finely than a trans ark. But it could be, if i infer from your mention of impurities, they just aren't cutting as fast for reasons that have nothing to do with relative fineness.

I always considered a charn "an arkansas with a soft temper", poor way to put it, but you can feel novaculite vs. slates, especially under oil. There is more slurry dulling and less of a filing feel if you scuff a novaculite stone. The first time scratched a charnley, i was surprised by it. I was also surprised by the variability.

I thought they were wonderful looking stones, though, and sometimes that's misleading.

One of the best cutting japanese stones I ever had was a plain green "narutaki tomae" stone coming from a hardware store in japan. I can't remember why I bought it, but to my surprise, it was an aggressive cutter, better than the ubiquitous imanishi ohira tomae, that are both a little coarse for what they should be *and* a little slow relative to a better stone.

The second green stone that I had was probably either mauroyama or narutaki or nakayama, but it was too old to be labeled anything other than "original stone" with a very old stamp. I found it on buyee for $32 and it was the most aggressive fine stone (as in, not by feel fine, but proven fine under the microscope) I've ever had. I figured it looked old and I would use it for razors because it was picked by a barbershop antique picker who listed it as unlabeled. I cracked off a layer of glue or something that was along one side and it had a faint label underneath.

I rarely marked up stones, but I did mark that one at $275 and listed it on ebay years later (should've kept it, but razor comment above applies - I hone a razor once a year and any fine stone is good for that) as "the best fine stone anyone will ever find, mine uncertain, but likely an original mine". the buyer was astounded by it - so good enough. I lost that much gain on more than one other stones. It would've been $1000-1500 from any other seller. It, too was kind of boring looking (aside from not being the common lighter atagoyama green, and a deeper more intense green that you see in some of the better earlier stones).

I had a lot of other very interesting looking stones that were average or slightly below average users and got suckered into buying a large number of coticules trying to find one that was both pretty and worked as well as it looked.

That aside, I wish I'd have weighed the cretan that I have before introducing it to oil. Mine has done so much tool sharpening that it looks jet black, so I didn't bother taking a picture of it to compare to others shown above.

(in keeping with your link - there must be novaculite of good quality all over the world.

when I mentioned to a pair of folks into a combination of geology and chemistry that novaculite is a better cutter than most cherts, they said "there's no way, they're both cryptocrystalline quartz".

things like that have taught me the value of outcomes rather than substituting perceived outcomes based on characteristics).

Interesting.

There's an analogy with the metals we cut with these stones - a chemist might say 'that's just an alloy of fairly pure iron with 1.2% carbon, maybe even describe its predominant structure eg face-centred cubic' but a metallurgist would know there'd be a world of practical difference not only due to the heat treatment changing the ferrite, austenite etc ratio but also, quite apart from 'grit size', the grain size and orientation within the microstructure and the distribution of any matrix around each grain, the homogeneity etc.

The more we learn the more we may find that detail may matter.

 

[cotedupy]

Kiita is generally a faster and softer stone, but often sold as being exceptionally fine. It's not that there aren't any, but they are usually less fine than sellers suggest. The color is fantastic. I had just a few buff colored stones that had excellent cutting characteristics. Same with black or gray or bluish - the odds go down. Plus, you can't get the visual interest on a dark gray stone of seeing the iron flower.

Newer stones are not being labeled that accurately from what I can tell. if a stone is loaded with bright purple stamps, especially if it says something from hatanaka or maruka labeling....well, I guess anything is fair game these days.

Your top stone has the coloration pattern of a dalmore - I may have had one of those, but don't recall - same with tams. I had one tam and still have a few fingerstones, but the labeled fine tams always went for several hundred dollars on ebay.

I'll take microscope pictures of the work my remaining idwall does at some point on the same razor as a dan's black. That'll sort out the fineness question in a hurry.

Yep - those swirly patterns are certainly very Dalmore-like on that Idwal.

Another few thing's I've been lucky to find; Water of Ayr x Tam O'Shanter Dual Hone, Fine Tam, and White Tam. These are all 8" stones, I've never seen another WTOS this size.

 

[D_W]

I only ever saw one large labeled WOA stone 8" long (but it wasn't a combo). It was $425 on ebay so I never really considered it very long.

I guess when the WOA were still being sold, and a lot of the fingerstones used for silversmithing, etc, the stones didn't cost that much. I don't know how long ago the sale of WOA stopped, but there was at least still stock of the silver polishing stones a few decades ago because I met someone who knew what they were based on that.

I see now that there are stones sold as "WOA replacements" in china for silversmithing. They are little green stones, though.

both of those tams are very nice. I saw one at an antique shop here years ago but the grade on it said something about carpenters tools or something coarse - not sure.

 

[cotedupy]

I only ever saw one large labeled WOA stone 8" long (but it wasn't a combo). It was $425 on ebay so I never really considered it very long.

I guess when the WOA were still being sold, and a lot of the fingerstones used for silversmithing, etc, the stones didn't cost that much. I don't know how long ago the sale of WOA stopped, but there was at least still stock of the silver polishing stones a few decades ago because I met someone who knew what they were based on that.

I see now that there are stones sold as "WOA replacements" in china for silversmithing. They are little green stones, though.

both of those tams are very nice. I saw one at an antique shop here years ago but the grade on it said something about carpenters tools or something coarse - not sure.

I think the descriptions of use on the 'normal' grey Tams referred mostly to the size and shape of the stone. With those ones that talk about carpenters tools being for larger more bench stone type ones. Here's a weird oval stick one I have for pruning shears and secateurs.

Which I made a handle for and turned it into a knife honing rod. The bottom stone is interesting here too - it's got a fully concave back for sharpening safety razor blades apparently.