High angle frogs for 'normal' Bailey-style planes?

[Eric The Viking]

I know Lie Nielsen make them. I can't afford a LN plane, let alone the extra frogs!

So does anyone make high angle frogs -- 50deg ("York" pitch) and/or 55deg ("Middle" pitch) that would fit yer basic Stanley or Record #4 or #4 1/2?

Is there a mechanical reason why it can't be done (things don't fit)? Or is there 'no demand'?

Back to the #80? Bevel up?

E.

 

[carlb40]

Not sure anyone makes them. A few years ago i came across someone who modified a standard frog by soldering on a wedge to create a york pitch. Had a quick look but can't find it again at the mo.

 

[Corneel]

Doesn't exist, never existed. I am also not aware of anyone ever having produced a higher bedding plane conform the Bailey or Bedrock style until the LN high angle frogs came along. At the other hand, standard angle 45 degree versions have been produced by the millions.

Maybe there is a clue in all this. :lol:

 

[Racers]

Cheaper to do a back bevel, you could buy a blade and keep it sharpened with a back bevel for when the occasion arises.

Pete

 

[Eric The Viking]

Thanks guys.

On the back bevel thing, Pete - I was missing the obvious! Not exactly hard I guess, and you're right - blades are cheap enough. It's far easier to have a double iron ready to drop in. I'd only need about a 10 degree back bevel to bring it to "middle pitch" (assume it's a cabinetmakers' joke!), and the actual bevel could be tiny.

Cheers,

E.

 

[bugbear]

I'm sure I've seen someone do a workshop mod to achieve this, I'll try to find it.

BugBear

 

[Corneel]

Here is a description of someone converting a standard Bailey plane:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/bSmalser/50Smooth/50Smooth1.asp

Backbevels seem to be easy but they are a bit of a pain to maintane. With a flat face you hone the bevel until a wire edge starts to apear on the face side, then you wipe of that wireedge. With the backbevel this becomes difficult to feel. And because the backbevel angle needs to be precise, a honing jig is almost unavoidable, making sharpening the blade cumbersome and time consuming.

The clue is, most any bevel down plane is equiped with a chipbreaker. This is all you really need to be able to plane cumbersome wood, especially when you don't use crumbly crossgrained dessert woods. I have it on good authority that the next issue of popular woodworking has an article about this technique. Otherwise searching on this forum probably will give you advice too.

 

[carlb40]

Ahh yes that is the one i was referring to earlier.

 

[AndyT]

Eric, a couple of years ago I posted some pictures of an East German 'universal plane' which works at 45 or 49 degrees. Pictures are here. https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/post622221.html#p622221 but may make more sense if you read the whole thread.

You are welcome to borrow it if you like!

 

[bugbear]

Here is a description of someone converting a standard Bailey plane:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/bSmalser/50Smooth/50Smooth1.asp

That's the one! Thanks. I think I first saw it on another site from that one, but that's the guy!

BugBear

 

[rafezetter]

Here is a description of someone converting a standard Bailey plane:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/bSmalser/50Smooth/50Smooth1.asp

It's a long and comprehensive walkthrough with.. no results to speak of - he remarks he can't tell any discernible difference between the 45 deg normal #4 and the 50 deg #4.1/2 - other than the larger plane being a bit harder to push through the grain, which he attributes to the extra size of the sole; maybe something, maybe nothing. The only thing to note though is the blade in the #4.1/2 is a Hock blade and thicker than the standard in his record #4, which may have some bearing - or again none at all.

For all the work involved, although great, seems long winded for inconclusive results.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Back in the days of Badger Pond i published a quick-and-dirty method for increasing the angle of the frog. It worked a treat.

Simply loosen the frog and slip underneath a couple of spacers made from steel washers. I cut a washer in half and used the side halves along the rear edge. Loosen frog, slip in spacers, tighten again. No adjustment to blade needed, but you will need to move the frog forward if you want to maintain a small mouth.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[bugbear]

Back in the days of Badger Pond i published a quick-and-dirty method for increasing the angle of the frog. It worked a treat.

Simply loosen the frog and slip underneath a couple of spacers made from steel washers. I cut a washer in half and used the side halves along the rear edge. Loosen frog, slip in spacers, tighten again. No adjustment to blade needed, but you will need to move the frog forward if you want to maintain a small mouth.

Regards from Perth

Derek

date: 3:31 24/9/2002

Mick and all

I recently acquired a 1950's Stanley #4 (English casting) and a new LN #4 blade (1/8" thick). There was no way that this blade was going to fit using the standard 45* frog. So I made shims out of steel washers (cut in half, otherwise they get in the way of the locking screws), and set the frog at 50*. Adjusted the frog so that I had the smallest mouth I could manage (and still get the blade to pass through), and tightened it all down very firmly. Everything felt solid. Sharpened the blade to 6000 on waterstones.

The result was unbelievably fine shavings on a difficult wood (Jarrah). On a straight-grained piece this included shavings with- and against the grain.

Regards from Perth

Derek

BugBear

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Well BB, you have to admit I have a good memory!

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Trafalgar]

Well BB, you have to admit I have a good memory!

Regards from Perth

Derek

Still use the plane by any chance? Sounded like a keeper.

 

[MMUK]

Excuse me sounding thick here but why change the frog angle? What purpose does this serve? Could the iron angle not be changed instead?

 

[carlb40]

The higher the frog angle the higher the effective pitch becomes. Which can depending on how high the angle is can create more of a scraping action. Which is good for interlocking grain timbers.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Well BB, you have to admit I have a good memory!

Regards from Perth

Derek

Still use the plane by any chance? Sounded like a keeper.

Like many tools, Charles, there is as much fun in the exploration and invention as in the creation of something from its use. The plane was used until replaced with a dedicated high angle smoother - a HNT Gordon, as I recall.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Eric The Viking]

Neat and elegantly simple idea, Derek.

I think for me, plan #1 is to experiment with a back bevel (because it's the easiest to do), then to shim with half washers or a wedge, because that's straightforward.

All this explains why nobody makes a frog - subtle differences in Bailey designs, and that there's no blindingly obvious improvement in performance that you could point to as a selling point for a commercial venture.

I get quite variable results with my #80 too. I suspect that's down to a couple of things: the sole is rounded, so it wobbles in use (it's been around a bit, evidently, before I got it) - needs flattening, and that I'm not making the edge properly or I have too much/not enough camber using the thumbscrew. When it does work it's pretty decent though. I've bottled out in the past and just sanded, but that's inadequate as it can't do anything about pre-existing tearout, and if done with a power tool, has a tendency to dome a flat surface.

Thanks for the thoughts everyone - I'll get there.

And yes, Andy, I will pop over to try your woody plane next time I get stuck! Thanks!

Cheers,

E.

 

[Trafalgar]

Well BB, you have to admit I have a good memory!

Regards from Perth

Derek

Still use the plane by any chance? Sounded like a keeper.

Like many tools, Charles, there is as much fun in the exploration and invention as in the creation of something from its use. The plane was used until replaced with a dedicated high angle smoother - a HNT Gordon, as I recall.

Regards from Perth

Derek

In order to place the superlatives into their proper context, please remind us what replaced the HNT Gordon units.