Luban Chinese Block Plane

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D_W

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The dots on here were from a sheet of results that I got for coupons of O1 and 26c3

Same person did the testing for 1095 for me (63.1 hardness average, 4.3 ft lbs of toughness), I just didn't get individual results, probably because he's busy - so I have the individual samples for the first two and 1095, just the sample averages).

I have an iron in my number 6 like this. Hard, nice working iron. Just slightly lacking in toughness. I checked larrin's schedule of toughness for hardness - it might improve just a little with another 25-50 degrees of tempering, or it might not make a difference - some steels gain toughness fast, and some don't or even go backwards. 1095 above 60 has only a gradual improvement in charted toughness from where this is tempered to a few points softer. I haven't done it yet. I can make one of these irons in less than an hour from sheet, so I don't have any reason not to look further, I guess.

They do warp. I vaguely recall people complaining about the flatness of the early WR irons. The answer isn't as simple as making 1095 thicker and grinding it back as a sample thicker than 1/8th will probably be harder on the surface.
results.jpg


The other thing I'd wonder with the WR irons is if they're fully hardened up to the slot - getting the slot in the quench increases warpage in a way that's not easy to deal with and greatly increase the chance that a crack will occur from the keyhole bottom into the middle of the iron.

Weird thing about the chart above - 26c3 definitely has the coarsest looking grain due to the excess carbon. Larrin (I think it was larrin) suggested that maybe the lack of a soak resulted in getting less carbon in solution (vs. in carbides) and that usually leads to better toughness.

My samples were better than his furnace samples :)

1095 is harder than his chart and ever so slightly under toughness (but may be where it would be).

For 1084, I had an outright failure with hardness at 61.6 and toughness at 3.4. I'm sure it's solvable. I do have a separate 1084 iron (our maybe four of them). If they suffer from anything, it's the early ones that I made before getting the right quench oil - they're just a little soft. I probably bungled the coupons by overheating and undertempering them - I don't remember aside from not being as careful with 1095 and 1084.

The novelty here for me is to find something like 1095 that has a tiny bit of chromium and maybe a small addition of silicon for toughness. Like a 1% version of 26c3. I'm not aware of any such thing being available, but I think something like that would result in a very good high hardness carbon steel plane iron....for people who think the alloying in O1 is too much.
 

D_W

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I have never dropped a plane yet (just chisels) and I don't plan on doing that.

Soles are flat so far. My No.6 is 5 years old ..

I've dropped a bunch of them.

I know I've broken something off of a casting very early on, but whatever it was, it's long gone (some older smoothing plane that wasn't ductile). I do remember the sound, though "thump....clink clink".

I also received a LV custom plane to test and accidentally dropped it almost immediately. The handle broke.

I've dropped two of my wooden planes - the handle broke.

And my wife knocked an infill skew shooting plane on the floor the last time she went into my shop and attempted to clean. IT didn't take much damage, but the impact was enough to get some of the dovetails to telegraph (or maybe that was seasonal movement).

I've never broken a handle planing and am generally starting to guess that planes with broken handles are planes that were dropped.

The LV plane didn't suffer anything other than the handle and a small dent. I filed the dent out and straightened the post that was in the handle and ...I guess I bought another handle at the time - can't remember. It did make me think after dropping the plane (not intentionally) that maybe they should have rubber handles.
 

Jameshow

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I broke a Stanley block plane as kid by dropping it. You can question those on the know for a long time, it does not change things. Sometimes we have to work with grey iron. This is what grey iron can do. I can fix this but I won’t discuss how. To complex for this forum.View attachment 132418 I
Go on tell us how sounds interesting!
 

Tony Zaffuto

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Years ago, I obtained a Sargent autoset smoother. Just a lovely antique! I was cleaning it and it drop out of my hand cracking the sole nearly in half. I went crying to the "Old Tool List" (US email based forum) and one of the members had just the same size sole, and sold it to me for a song. Very pleased, I took delivery of it, and went to cleaning into so as to install the needed pieces to make it whole.....and I dropped it, cracking the replacement.

Sometimes the tool gods just don't want you to have a pristine antique Sargent Autoset smoother, with a cast iron sole.
 

D_W

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You forgot I own a powder metal plant along with a complete machine and fab shop!

Oh, I was talking about the giant broken casting devmeister had.

I think you could probably, though, make a new casting for the sargent out of CPM 10V and harden it to 65 :)

Then it would probably break if it hit the floor again, though.
 

Woody2Shoes

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My LN bronze/brass tools (little spokeshaves and hand beader) are beautiful and functional. So is my Luban/Quansheng 102 block plane from Workshop Heaven - whatever the source of the material might be (you'd think the US military could re-use/recycle their own brass - and lead for that matter!). I'm sure that a good Chinese metallurgist/foundry operative would check the composition - and adjust accordingly - of the mix before pouring...
 

D_W

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For what it's worth, the US military does not re-use/recycle their brass. They sell it. It helps secondary market ammunition be more reasonable cost and selling empty casings helps the military get more money than they would for scrap brass.

A 260 brass plane would be plenty hard to use - it would just be sticky. The LN bronze plane is more sticky than cast. Mild steel is more sticky than cast (I couldn't say for sure which of those two is more sticky, but the LN bronze is exceptionally durable). I don't know what the small planes LN makes are made of, but I'd have trouble believing that once LN makes them that someone in the east couldn't just copy them and even if they're not technically identical, make them seemingly nice to use.

It's the intentional stealing of identifying characteristics that bothers me. Thus, at one point WC was sending me things now and then to test in response for feedback and once they went on to the planes, I declined to accept any of the stuff (even though it would be free - at least other than trying something out). I believe so much in personal choice that I can't imagine a case where I tell someone else what they should think or do, though. If someone just loves the WR planes and gets tingles over them, I wouldn't want to get between them and their planes.
 

Devmeister

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I am not a fan of C260. Might as well make it out of copper. In principle I guess you could start with C260 and begin adding stuff to make a different alloy. I just don’t like how it works. I would rather work with stainless and it’s issues.

I too am bothered by clones. But if you want to buy a Leban, knock yourself out.

The police and military are prohibited from using reloaded ammo in the line of duty. It’s seen as a reliability issue.
 

chaoticbob

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It doesn't really matter in the great scheme of things, but for the record C260 (known as cartridge brass on the UK side of the pond) actually has a higher copper content (~70%) than what is called 'common brass' (~62% copper) and has a deeper more 'goldy' colour than common brass. It is single phase (alpha) alloy and is more ductile and malleable than common (alpha/beta mixed phase) brass - which is why it is good for cartridges which are made by forming rather than machining. And less likely to fracture when the bang thing happens. But it's deeper, not lighter in colour than the more machinable alpha/beta alloys.
I'm at a loss to understand why this matters in plane manufacture though. I have old (1950 -60's ) Record planes which cost me ten quid (that's ten nicker, less than half a pony, or ten stout British Pounds to clarify) apiece and they work fine. I also have new cheapos which don't work - but that's because of geometry (mouth and cap iron mostly) and poor cutting irons rather than the body metal. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see how using fancy bronzes for the non-business end parts can improve performance. I do understand the allure of a nicely made shiny tool though!
Bob.
 

Devmeister

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You have tool users and you have tool makers. Different perspectives.

1). I don’t like working with C260. I tried to go cheap and use it on an A7. OMG It was like peening bubble gum. Wound up throwing it out and replaced the sides with naval brass. Naval brass is the closet I have found to admiralty gun metal.

2). As mentioned, you have functionality and you have looks. My issue with Leban is that they have cloned the branding of Lie Nielsen. They are trading on a market brand that belongs to someone else still in business.

I like Clifton but I don’t like the new ones painted black. The British green they used was characteristic of Clifton. It was a market identifier.

CMT makes orange router bits. No one else is allowed to use orange for router bits as it impringes on a market brand.

Woodcraft made an active decision not to carry a Leban clone block plane because of this. So they have the knuckle cap block plane. Made in the same factory but does not impringe on Lie Nielsen’s brand image.
 

D_W

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what this forum really needs...I can tell....is more topic nannies like the last several posts. What's a topic nanny? Someone who flies to a forum that they don't post anything useful in - like a moth to a light bulb, and then provides social commentary, stretching out the very threads they claim to be criticizing. You guys all give each other the thumbs up with great regularity, too. Self-reinforcing nothingness.

the hand tool part of this forum has been dull and dying for people of any skill or legitimate experience to participate in, but what really thrives here? A post big enough to bring in people who don't actually post anything, but want to criticize other people having a discussion that doesn't have the right opinions for them.

There's a term at the end of closed threads: "This thread has run its course".

unfortunately, this topical forum appears to have run its course several years ago. I've struggled to engage almost anyone on here who has a clue what they're talking about but it really doesn't happen - bickering about what should or shouldn't be discussed or what people can or can't talk about is what really thrives.

This forum has run its course. Too bad. Some of the other subforums have people actually doing or making things in them, but this one is toast. Too many people giving opinions about stuff that has nothing to do with hand tools, or giving opinions when they have no clue what they're talking about. Anyone who makes anything of substance is long gone- probably coming (more quietly) to the same conclusion I mentioned here. There's nothing of substance. People supposedly woodworking for decades can't come up with anything more than arguing about whether or not you can or can't be a craftsman if you used lie-nielsen tools.

I really wish I had a clue how to get people motivated to do, think, share or learn something substantive, but why bother pondering it - I think it ended 10 years ago - there must be a front desk somewhere that you can hand your keys in.
 

Jameshow

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what this forum really needs...I can tell....is more topic nannies like the last several posts. What's a topic nanny? Someone who flies to a forum that they don't post anything useful in - like a moth to a light bulb, and then provides social commentary, stretching out the very threads they claim to be criticizing. You guys all give each other the thumbs up with great regularity, too. Self-reinforcing nothingness.

the hand tool part of this forum has been dull and dying for people of any skill or legitimate experience to participate in, but what really thrives here? A post big enough to bring in people who don't actually post anything, but want to criticize other people having a discussion that doesn't have the right opinions for them.

There's a term at the end of closed threads: "This thread has run its course".

unfortunately, this topical forum appears to have run its course several years ago. I've struggled to engage almost anyone on here who has a clue what they're talking about but it really doesn't happen - bickering about what should or shouldn't be discussed or what people can or can't talk about is what really thrives.

This forum has run its course. Too bad. Some of the other subforums have people actually doing or making things in them, but this one is toast. Too many people giving opinions about stuff that has nothing to do with hand tools, or giving opinions when they have no clue what they're talking about. Anyone who makes anything of substance is long gone- probably coming (more quietly) to the same conclusion I mentioned here. There's nothing of substance. People supposedly woodworking for decades can't come up with anything more than arguing about whether or not you can or can't be a craftsman if you used lie-nielsen tools.

I really wish I had a clue how to get people motivated to do, think, share or learn something substantive, but why bother pondering it - I think it ended 10 years ago - there must be a front desk somewhere that you can hand your keys in.
Agreed, I just like to see things being made what ever the skill level and tools used and a healthy debate about the methods used, that's why I really appreciate the posts of Derek in Oz and Scotty to name just a couple! Many others too but a glass of wine dosent help the memory!!
 

mark w

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what this forum really needs...I can tell....is more topic nannies like the last several posts. What's a topic nanny? Someone who flies to a forum that they don't post anything useful in - like a moth to a light bulb, and then provides social commentary, stretching out the very threads they claim to be criticizing. You guys all give each other the thumbs up with great regularity, too. Self-reinforcing nothingness.

the hand tool part of this forum has been dull and dying for people of any skill or legitimate experience to participate in, but what really thrives here? A post big enough to bring in people who don't actually post anything, but want to criticize other people having a discussion that doesn't have the right opinions for them.

There's a term at the end of closed threads: "This thread has run its course".

unfortunately, this topical forum appears to have run its course several years ago. I've struggled to engage almost anyone on here who has a clue what they're talking about but it really doesn't happen - bickering about what should or shouldn't be discussed or what people can or can't talk about is what really thrives.

This forum has run its course. Too bad. Some of the other subforums have people actually doing or making things in them, but this one is toast. Too many people giving opinions about stuff that has nothing to do with hand tools, or giving opinions when they have no clue what they're talking about. Anyone who makes anything of substance is long gone- probably coming (more quietly) to the same conclusion I mentioned here. There's nothing of substance. People supposedly woodworking for decades can't come up with anything more than arguing about whether or not you can or can't be a craftsman if you used lie-nielsen tools.

I really wish I had a clue how to get people motivated to do, think, share or learn something substantive, but why bother pondering it - I think it ended 10 years ago - there must be a front desk somewhere that you can hand your keys in.
what this forum really needs...I can tell....is more topic nannies like the last several posts. What's a topic nanny? Someone who flies to a forum that they don't post anything useful in - like a moth to a light bulb, and then provides social commentary, stretching out the very threads they claim to be criticizing. You guys all give each other the thumbs up with great regularity, too. Self-reinforcing nothingness.

the hand tool part of this forum has been dull and dying for people of any skill or legitimate experience to participate in, but what really thrives here? A post big enough to bring in people who don't actually post anything, but want to criticize other people having a discussion that doesn't have the right opinions for them.

There's a term at the end of closed threads: "This thread has run its course".

unfortunately, this topical forum appears to have run its course several years ago. I've struggled to engage almost anyone on here who has a clue what they're talking about but it really doesn't happen - bickering about what should or shouldn't be discussed or what people can or can't talk about is what really thrives.

This forum has run its course. Too bad. Some of the other subforums have people actually doing or making things in them, but this one is toast. Too many people giving opinions about stuff that has nothing to do with hand tools, or giving opinions when they have no clue what they're talking about. Anyone who makes anything of substance is long gone- probably coming (more quietly) to the same conclusion I mentioned here. There's nothing of substance. People supposedly woodworking for decades can't come up with anything more than arguing about whether or not you can or can't be a craftsman if you used lie-nielsen tools.

I really wish I had a clue how to get people motivated to do, think, share or learn something substantive, but why bother pondering it - I think it ended 10 years ago - there must be a front desk somewhere that you can hand your keys in.
If you don't like this forum then leave, simple as that really, personally I think it's still the best forum around at the moment with a vast array of post topics and points of view.
 

Rich C

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This forum has run its course. Too bad. Some of the other subforums have people actually doing or making things in them, but this one is toast. Too many people giving opinions about stuff that has nothing to do with hand tools, or giving opinions when they have no clue what they're talking about. Anyone who makes anything of substance is long gone- probably coming (more quietly) to the same conclusion I mentioned here. There's nothing of substance. People supposedly woodworking for decades can't come up with anything more than arguing about whether or not you can or can't be a craftsman if you used lie-nielsen tools.
Is a post about the perceived quality of the brass used in a plane really what the hand tools subforum needs to revitalise it? If anything it would be more interesting for those in the metalwork subforum? Most hand tool users have little interest in the metallurgy of their tools I would warrant, as long as they hold an edge and do what they are supposed to.
 

AJB Temple

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DW, you seem out to criticise people who disagree with you and the other chap defending LN on a self appointed judgement basis. You have very specific interests and you like to post about them at length. Fine. Your remarks above are judgemental don't you think? Not everyone agrees with you or has any interest in discussing the finer points of metals used to make hand tools. There are active hand tool experts posting build and tool threads on line, and most of them used to be very active here and are now active elsewhere. No site owns the membership and if people don't post content that is to your taste, that is just life.
 

Sgian Dubh

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the hand tool part of this forum has been dull and dying for people of any skill or legitimate experience to participate in, but what really thrives here? A post big enough to bring in people who don't actually post anything, but want to criticize other people having a discussion that doesn't have the right opinions for them.

unfortunately, this topical forum appears to have run its course several years ago. I've struggled to engage almost anyone on here who has a clue what they're talking about but it really doesn't happen - bickering about what should or shouldn't be discussed or what people can or can't talk about is what really thrives.

This forum has run its course. Too bad. Some of the other subforums have people actually doing or making things in them, but this one is toast.

I really wish I had a clue how to get people motivated to do, think, share or learn something substantive, but why bother pondering it - I think it ended 10 years ago - there must be a front desk somewhere that you can hand your keys in.
Ooh. I think that's all a bit harsh, David. Perhaps I'm unusual but I, for one, only get involved in threads when it suits me and I can be bothered to do so. There's many a topic pops up that I can answer with what I believe to be some authority through training, qualifications and experience, but don't do so simply because I don't feel the urge to get involved. That's usually because I've other things I prefer to focus on and don't wish to devote effort and time to a thread in which there might be quite a bit of back and forth discussion between myself and others to cover the subject thoroughly. However, I must admit, I've no specialist knowledge of metals, so threads such as this one I find, through dropping in from time to time, informative and interesting. Slainte.
 
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