HiFi and Hollow Forms

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Jacob":1lnedvox said:
Eric The Viking":1lnedvox said:
OK, if we're going there, try this on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8Msxznyhfc
It doesn't say on the YouTube version, but that's Tommy Flanagan on piano.

Phenomenal album.
Grover Washington. Nice but just a bit "easy listening".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_TG18cL ... re=related
Brilliant links on youtube - could be here all day :shock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ja2v0CI ... re=related

I'll play as well, my fav piano player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvc5tSqak2Q&feature=fvst

Oh by the way Jacob, equipment fetishism is way more advanced in HiFi than in woodworking circles. Woodies think a 5 grand plane is over the top, 5 grand is not even getting strated in HiFi circles for some people, how about these speakers. A snip at 210 grand.

LEE-VOX_OLYM500.jpg
 
As the boss found out a couple of weeks ago whilst we were being demo'd a 8000 series Tv, she remarked that the small set of speakers stood on the side would look better matched than the ones we have if they were to be placed alongside a new unit.
The rather high 4 fig. price tag quoted changed the visual appreciation for some reason.
 
I chuckle a bit about the going rate for 3/5As on fleabay.

If I were to re-veneer mine really carefully, they'd probably be worth around £1500. But it's like house prices - what would I replace them with? Far too useful and convenient. A second pair would be handy, but now, ridiculously unattainable.

Still, it's amusing to think we used to use them for foldback and talkback a lot of the time. And monitoring, it's true, but 'twas a foolish man who touched any tone control below 200Hz...

E.

PS: I count three lots of horn loading in that picture, and a rather odd attempt (possibly) at an acoustic lens. "Now class, what's the rule about horn-loaded loudspeakers... ?" I don't actually like Spendor BC1s very much, but I know instantly which I'd prefer to listen to. Are they what's becoming known as 'steampunk'?
 
cutting42":recwl2xm said:
Oh by the way Jacob, equipment fetishism is way more advanced in HiFi than in woodworking circles. Woodies think a 5 grand plane is over the top, 5 grand is not even getting strated in HiFi circles for some people, how about these speakers. A snip at 210 grand.

I suppose if you are spending that sort of money on speakers, the £1000 mains lead might not seem to stupid. Nice looking bit of woodwork though.

It would be interesting to discover the percentage difference in quality between a system like that and my classic old system. I strongly suspect that I won't get the chance but I doubt its more than 2 or 3% better which makes the cost difference a bit of a waste of time - for me at least.
 
Eric The Viking":31ym38po said:
I chuckle a bit about the going rate for 3/5As on fleabay.

And indeed the Garrard 301. I found mine in the loft of a house I bought, along with the Leak amp and tuner. Bargain.

Mind you, if you look at the engineering, it would no doubt cost a fortune to make nowadays. In the UK anyway, the Chinese could probably do it for a couple of quid.
 
gus3049":3d9yq7kj said:
cutting42":3d9yq7kj said:
Oh by the way Jacob, equipment fetishism is way more advanced in HiFi than in woodworking circles. Woodies think a 5 grand plane is over the top, 5 grand is not even getting strated in HiFi circles for some people, how about these speakers. A snip at 210 grand.

I suppose if you are spending that sort of money on speakers, the £1000 mains lead might not seem to stupid. Nice looking bit of woodwork though.

It would be interesting to discover the percentage difference in quality between a system like that and my classic old system. I strongly suspect that I won't get the chance but I doubt its more than 2 or 3% better which makes the cost difference a bit of a waste of time - for me at least.

And therin lies the conundrum. I have heard some excellent systems, one of which probably pushed 40 grand and did have fairly expensive interconnects and mains leads, he also had a dedicated main supply isolated from the rest of the house. It did (and does) sound astonishing and is very accurate. I have tested much of my DIY hifi stuff through it and it is very revealing of differences between components.

However my home system which is much more modest although I probably have spent a few thousand over the years is also capable of making music that I enjoy but in a very different way to my friends system. I would not spend 20k on a pair of speakers but I am making some for which the drivers alone were 800 quid and the crossovers probably 200. If these were to be commercialised they would have to sell at 10 grand to make a profit for someone.
 
Probably my last word on this thread. Starting anything about hi-fi seems guaranteed to get a few comments :D

I've heard very expensive systems that clearly demonstrate how the music was put together, show the minutae of the performance and leave me absolutely cold. My only criteria is - does it move me? - if I don't start tapping my feet and jumping up and down in time to the music, the system is 'hi-fi' and nothing to do with 'music'. My cheapest system - Marantz Cd63 SE, Musical Fidelity A100 and Kef 101's - absolutely rocks. All my bits were chosen for that reason and no other. If I have ever bought anything that failed to move me at home it went straight back to eBay or the shop.

It doesn't always take lots of money - just a good set of ears and a love of music.
 
gus3049":xg2tez0t said:
My only criteria is - does it move me? - if I don't start tapping my feet and jumping up and down in time to the music..........


......... then you're listening to the wrong music :wink: .

Roy
 
RogerS":9wdjdhkz said:
gus3049":9wdjdhkz said:
... My only criteria is - does it move me? - if I don't start tapping my feet and jumping up and down in time to the music, ....

How does that work with Schoenberg ? :roll: :wink:

Yikes - wot a norrible thought :shock:

I'm sure I mentioned 'music'
 
doorframe":1whejm9q said:
gus3049":1whejm9q said:
My only criteria is - does it move me? - if I don't start tapping my feet and jumping up and down in time to the music..........


......... then you're listening to the wrong music :wink: .

Roy

See next post :lol:
 
CHJ":3py2uano said:
No didn't have the cash for such luxuries as pre-made units, just managed to buy the best gold badged speaker units I could afford (I started paying a mortgage in 1963), it was a case of getting the books out and building the cabinets myself, first ones were 3/4" veneered blockboard skins with sand filled baffles, base reflex, the most solid pieces of furniture in the house. The cause of much comment when we had our first fitted capet fitted and they had to be moved, likewise when we moved house in the mid 70's, removal men not amused.

I bet thay have a good solid sound Chas. I never got around to making my own cabinets myself. Although I did have a pair of concrete drainpipes with my first system. On a suspended wooden floor I certainly felt the music :)
xy
 
Eric The Viking":1lm7ow2k said:
This is entirely Jacob's fault:

A discussion elsewhere about being pretentious about 'hollow forms' reminded me of my HiFi experiences years ago. Here's pretty much what I learned:

There are good and great hi-fi designs, and there are some rules of thumb:

.................................
Anybody care to add any others?

Cheers,

When you say "You cannot" you should really be using the first person and saying "I cannot". Some people can hear the difference between some of the components and setups you mention in your list although I am inclined to agree about the cables.

Many years ago (15+) I did a blind test between several high-end CD players with a view to purchasing one and could definitely hear a difference and one in particular stood out which was the one I ended up buying. I still have it now and it wasn't until earlier this year that the laser started playing up so it's off to the manufacturer for repair.

Even further back in the mists of time, before the digital revolution really took off, I auditioned more speaker setups than I can remember and tried a number out at home but one set stood out from all the others like night and day. As you can't beat litres for effortless grunt in an engine, the same applies to loudspeakers and my taste in music requires both grunt and subtlety which is not easy to achieve. But achieve it I did and still have those speakers and will probably be buried in them.

My hearing is not as acute as it was 20 years ago but I can still tell the difference between an LP and a CD. :)
 
RogerS":235qv7ry said:
Eric The Viking":235qv7ry said:
..... I don't actually like Spendor BC1s very much, ....

Wash your mouth out immediately and go and stand in the corner !

Unrepentant, although former colleagues blame the built-in amps of the BBC version.

But don't tell MTS I said that (if he's still with us!).

:)

S.
 
Only ever had three homes of my own, non of which have had 'ideal' sound presentation capabilities, just the living accommodation as supplied.
The acquisition of, or change out of equipment has in the main been that which gave a non offensive to the ear sound in the current surroundings and as the years have passed and the effects of too many jet engine encounters and the like have taken their toll, common sense tells me that spending more on the latest exotics is unlikely to provide me with any more pleasure for the few hours available each day to sit and listen to its output.
Having had a daughter whose hearing was exceptionally acute at high frequencies sorted out a lot of high end distortion I could not hear in the early days, (could be seen on a scope but never sure that was not the fault of the mic.) but had a marked effect on the overall pleasure of the sound when removed by tuning the cross-over chokes/filters.
But overall I'm a sound heathen, if I walk into a great cathedral and someone is at practice and saturating the space with various improvisations or variations on a theme of something not related to the normal sunday dirge I can just melt into a pew and sit in rapture.
 
myturn":16f6a9z4 said:
When you say "You cannot" you should really be using the first person and saying "I cannot". Some people can hear the difference between some of the components and setups you mention in your list although I am inclined to agree about the cables.

Statistically, they can't. Not in double-blind tests, anyway. But the caveat is that the components in question should work correctly. Cables with, for example, high capacitance, or poor screening, will probably sound significantly different to others. But even then people can't tell which one is right.

Many years ago (15+) I did a blind test between several high-end CD players with a view to purchasing one and could definitely hear a difference and one in particular stood out which was the one I ended up buying. I still have it now and it wasn't until earlier this year that the laser started playing up so it's off to the manufacturer for repair.

Even further back in the mists of time, before the digital revolution really took off, I auditioned more speaker setups than I can remember and tried a number out at home but one set stood out from all the others like night and day. As you can't beat litres for effortless grunt in an engine, the same applies to loudspeakers and my taste in music requires both grunt and subtlety which is not easy to achieve. But achieve it I did and still have those speakers and will probably be buried in them.

My hearing is not as acute as it was 20 years ago but I can still tell the difference between an LP and a CD. :)

Speakers and amps together interact, quite audibly in some cases. I had a hard lesson about this when I thought I'd try to find some new bookshelf speakers years ago.

I owned Monitor Audio MA7s (still do although they've been extensively rebuilt since), and used 3/5As a lot at work. I got a local HiFi shop to set up a listening test between three pairs of speakers - 3/5A and two now forgotten others. They had the same CD player as me, and I brought the music: some rock and jazz, some Telemann, and Saint Saens' symphony #3, which is evil on the wrong system. I didn't choose the amp though - it was a Mission Cyrus something-or-other.

I thought I'd start with the 3/5As as I "knew" them. 16 bars (I think - might be 32) into the last movement of the SS there is a loud entry of the 1st violins, with the signature crashing organ chord about the same amount later on. We never got to the organ: to my surprise the violin entry 'cracked' in other words it clipped, quite nastily. I was quite surprised by this, especially as the system wasn't very loud. Trying different speakers, it was clean. The golden-ears from the shop couldn't actually hear the effect!

I spent my lunch hour going over the same section with all three sets of speakers. He got a bit frustrated with me as he really couldn't hear what I was trying to point out! Two pairs were fine, but the 3/5As weren't. Back at work, it was fine on the 3/5As there, which were far more abused (regularly blown tweeters because of tape spooling past the heads). Assuming the shop's speakers were OK, and they were pretty much new, that left the amp. It turned out that the Mission amp couldn't drive 15 Ohm speakers properly! The other two pairs were 8 Ohms, and at work the 3/5As were driven by HH AM8/12s (which I still use today).

That amp had had rave reviews in the hi-fi press, but it wasn't properly designed. There were more than a few like that out there too.

But don't get me started on Bose :)

E.

PS: Having read Chas' post above, in recent years I've looked at the waveform of that CD sample-by sample using a direct digital copy. Insofar as I'm able to tell, it's clean.
 
Eric The Viking":22w7vftb said:
But don't get me started on Bose :)
.
"Right" is what the user wants to hear, there is no absolute.

Bose. What are they? They advertise modern music-centres and fancy sounding speakers but they don't figure in the world of real music.

These are what I call REAL speakers.

tdl5s.jpg
 
No..this is a large home hi-fi speaker!

diy%20-%20horn%20loudspeaker%20mk2%20-%20hi-fi%20news%20-%20oct%2067%20-%204.jpg


John Crabbe ..editor of HiFi news back in the late 60's built these two large concrete horn speakers in his sitting room. They sounded pretty damn good as I recall.
 
RogerS":3l13d9i8 said:
No..this is a large home hi-fi speaker!


John Crabbe ..editor of HiFi news back in the late 60's built these two large concrete horn speakers in his sitting room. They sounded pretty damn good as I recall.
Wonder what he'd do, or did, if he ever moved house? #-o
 
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