Help with awkward customer please.

[oakfield]

I hope you don't mind me asking for your opinion on a small job i have just done.

While i was at a customers house fitting some doors, she asked me to look at a small kitchen unit that she wanted renewed:

I did a sketchup picture of pretty much what she has:

And then one with a couple of suggestions - a built in dishwasher, reduce the width to lose the filler panels, which meant she could move the oven over a few inches and gain very useful space and 3 draws instead of 2:

She liked all these suggestions so i gave her a quote, which basically said I would construct and fit a sink unit to the supplied design.
(1 door for integrated dishwasher, 2 doors under sink 3 drawers to right of sink)
Supplied unpainted
Customer to supply and fit own worktop.

She agreed and i set about building it.

When i came to fit it last week she didn't have a dishwasher ready so i said i would come and fit that when she got one. I made a judgement call as i was building it and made one door under the sink instead of the 2 small ones and changes the dimensions of the drawers to be more standard and useful - she was happy with the changes - especially as i knocked £50 off!

I was there for the day ripping out and disposing of the old units and fitting the new stuff which can be see here with the sink removed for her to paint behind and she seemed very happy with it:

and here with the sink in place and primer on some doors:

I Went back the following day to fix a leak with the existing plumbing for her, again she seemed pleased.


But then, the following morning, she phoned up and said:
she didn't like it
It's not what she wanted,
she was expecting a free standing piece, with face frame, skirting etc.
The doors a too thin and feel cheap,
she doesn't like the pine knobs
and she has put a stop on the cheque!


My argument is it's exactly what she asked for,
No part of the design implied a free standing piece, with face frame, skirting etc.
the doors are 5 piece frame and panel using 18mm mdf and 6mm panel (I admit, these could be thicker, but i think they are adequate - i think i will use thicker for any future work)
I gave her the option of porcelain knobs like the old unit, "any other design you would like" or the pine knobs which she went for.

The units are all made of 18mm MR MDF with solid tops and 9mm backs
The draw boxes are (bought in) dovetailed beech
on Blum full extension bluemotion runners
the door hinges are soft close



Please could you tell me how much you would of charged for this, or expected to pay
And whether you think the design and finished article are a good match?

Sorry for the loooong post, but I'm a little wound up about this!


Thanks,
Mark.

 

[Anonymous]

i can see your point.
also can see the customers point! i would never alter a design after the client has accepted.and would not dream of not consulting first if i had a change of plan.
can you not just alter it back to the agreed style? then they cannot argue.

 

[ProShop]

FWIW. it seems to me that she has shown this to someone else and they have given their opinion to her on what they think it could have looked like, especially judging by the list of complaints you mention.
Show her again the drawing/sketch she agreed to and stick to your guns, or see if you both can come to a compromise on her newfound ideas and based on the time & money you've spent so far and you making a new version................

 

[Anonymous]

the drawing and sketch she agreed to is, nothing like what has been fitted? 2nd drawer does not line up with the top of the door, odd size drawer fronts. just stick to what was agreed and you should get paid.
a bad name spreads faster than a good one.

 

[Richard T]

But she ok'd the changes, as well as everything else ? Looks like the only thing that has completely changed her mind about the whole thing is the primer....

Have you tried shooting her? :idea:

 

[moz]

Mike seems to want you to throw good money after bad. It isn't like the drawing but she accepted the changes at a lower price and those amendments haven't featured in her complaints at all. If she decided on reflection that she was less happy with the outcome than with the original idea then it would be questionable but she hasn't said this. As has been said, someone is feeding her ammunition and has convinced her she should be getting a job like something out of a Christian's catalogue. She is being unreasonable and you should pursue her for payment in my opinion. Can we ask how much you asked for the work?

John

 

[Anonymous]

she might be in the wrong but he said i made the changes while buiding, then knocked 50 quid off when he went to fit? i guess the reason he knocked 50 off was because he knew he had altered the design to suit him. otherwise why the reduction? you only used two less stiles for the double doors?
just accept it and resolve it. you made an error of judgement and now its come back and bitten you you ass.

 

[Anonymous]

first and foremost i would never have changed the design without consulting............maybe you put her on the spot and she said yes without thinking it through and isn't happy with the outcome.

however here is my take on it (mainly guess work)

She is an older lady late 60's, probably widowed. she has had someone like her son or son in law come over, and they've said 'I can't believe he's used MDF thats not good, water will get into that and it will destroy it............if he said he was going to do it like this drawing he should have done, it looks nothing like it etc etc

I am the worlds worse for it, if my mom has something done that she isn't happy with i get onto the phone for her and tell them straight (not in an aggressive way) but I am just very honest with them.

in my opinion there isn't anything wrong with using MRMDF at all used in this situation as long as its well sealed.

Although i do think you need to sit the sink onto something solid like some oak which will over hang the doors and have a drip groove running through it

 

[studders]

I have to say the 'look' of the units doesn't grab me, particularly the top drawer being different. Maybe that is why she is disappointed?

 

[oakfield]

Thanks for all the advice and opinions.

Firstly, i would never normally change the design without the okay from the customer, however, i tried for several days to contact her and if i didn't make the decision it would of been delayed by a month as i get on with other projects - in hindsight i should of stuck to the agreed design, but in my opinion it wouldn't of looked good and i wouldn't of been happy with it.

The small design changes aren't the issue with her at all - i said if she had any doubt about them i would be more than happy to change them to the original plan, but she agreed it's better as it is and isn't questioning that now.

I don't think the drawers are odd sizes - they are standard pan drawer and cutlery drawer sizes.

I would happily try to change the unit to something she would like more but as mentioned, i fear that would be throwing good money after bad....

Also the fact that while i was there, she was telling me how skint they are and will have to take in students from July to help pay for the house makes me think they have just realized they can't afford it anymore!

ps. she is middle aged with 2 kids at uni, about an 8 years old daughter and married.

 

[chrs_666]

I would have charged around £ 1000 + vat give or take around 3.5 days labour in total quite frankly i would go through your situation with your client if i got no joy i would park my van across her drive and leave it until payment was made just me.

how much did you charge ?

 

[Dodge]

The main questions from my experience here are:-

1) What had you specifically put in writing?
2) Had she paid a deposit?
3) Had she signed a copy of your written work confirming acceptance of the work to be undertaken.

If she has signed a copy, paid you a deposit and you have made the work to the exact spec then she has got to pay up or commence proceedings with small claims immediately.

If you havn't got any of the above then you are unlikely to get anything if it goes further

IMHO

Rog

 

[Lardman]

Some of the problem might be the changes from the sketch, not just the under sink cupboard but the drawers on the right.

Your sketch was nicely balanced, with everything inline - the actual work is very eclectic, the drawers may be a standard size but they don't line up any more. You have the pine knobs centred but on the right under the sink, it just looks off balance.

If I was the customer Id want them lined up as per sketch.

 

[joiner_sim]

When I worked for a furniture company last year, we did a few manufacture & fit kitchens. And the one job was a 20k kitchen. Everything was going to plan okay, until the american style fridge we ordered turned up and had a 4" gap either side and top. We couldn't move a thing as it would all not line up and not match the drawing at all. In the end it was a compromise from the customer, although I am sure they are still probably unhappy with it now. A 4" wide face frame all the way around the fridge. It didn't match the drawing and it did cause alot of problems until the compromise. Not sure if we had to give some sort of compensation for it but, was a "fussy" (bosses words.... i sympathised with the customer though) customer.

Bottom line is stick to the plan, and if things need to be amended, try and sort it out no matter what..... that company I worked for went under at christmas and was partly down to them not being able to fulfill their promises to customers.

 

[tomatwark]

The main questions from my experience here are:-

1) What had you specifically put in writing?
2) Had she paid a deposit?
3) Had she signed a copy of your written work confirming acceptance of the work to be undertaken.

If she has signed a copy, paid you a deposit and you have made the work to the exact spec then she has got to pay up or commence proceedings with small claims immediately.

If you havn't got any of the above then you are unlikely to get anything if it goes further

IMHO

Rog

Rog

You definitely speaking from experience here.

I have had my fair share of awkward customers over the years.

This is why I always make sure I get a deposit, get the customer to approve the drawings and always run changes past them.

Mark

As Rog has said you may a have to chalk this up to experience.

I would write her a letter saying you will come and remove the work in say 4 weeks to give her time to get someone to make it, I would also put in the letter that you expect the goods to be in the same condition as you left them, and if she continues to paint them she has then accepted the work and will need to be paid for in full. This only costs a first class stamp.

Without knowing what you charged her and if you have had a deposit it is really difficult to know if you would get anywhere through the courts. But I suspect by changing the design you will probably lose and waste your time and money.

It certainly sounds as though someone has been putting ideas in her head, although I personally never use Mdf for kitchen door frames anymore as I have had bad experiences with water causing the Mdf to come apart.

Tom

 

[tomatwark]

I have just noticed the customer is fitting their own top, as it is a Belfast sink, how are they going to make the sink cut out, it takes the right kit to do it properly, and I wonder if they have found this and asked a worktop firm to do it and they have put a spanner in the works or offered to do the job cheaper.

Tom

 

[Dodge]

Unfortunately I'm sure that everyone on here has had a bad experience with a customer over the years.

I will never undertake any work or commence a commission without the duplicates of my correspondence/Commitment letter duly signed by the customer & receipt of a 50% deposit. I also dictate in my correspondence that the balance is payable in full 7 working days prior to delivery/installation.

Customers are actively encouraged to come to my workshop when I am working on a project for them to make sure that they are fully happy with the work being undertaken.

No deposit - No work. If they are not prepared to make a commitment to me I am not prepared to make a commitment to them - simples. Sounds harsh but it works for me.

Only been badly bitten once about 10 years ago and I will never get caught out again!

Anyway - I hope you get it sorted out.

 

[Shane]

No deposit - No work. If they are not prepared to make a commitment to me I am not prepared to make a commitment to them - simples. Sounds harsh but it works for me.

I'm the same, regardless of how big the job is, the customer pays deposit for all materials and some labour, although I allow payment of balance on completion. I don't do credit for anyone. Also if they cancel the job they don't get their deposit back as I buy the materials as soon as possible in case prices go up. at least that way if it goes totally **** up I haven't lost out completely, I am a very persistent person though and I haven't been caught (yet)

 

[oakfield]

Thanks again for all the opinions.

As mentioned above, the changes i made are not an issue in the slightest - if they were, i would be more than happy to remake doors and drawer front without hesitating.

The customer bought a piece of granite worktop cheaply, and have a friend who can fit it for them.

I have never had an unsatisfied customer before and would rather not have this one so i would like to resolve the issue if i can.

I was hoping to get a few more opinions of a fair price before revealing what i charged, but it was £735.

Thanks again,
Mark.

 

[chrs_666]

The main questions from my experience here are:-

1) What had you specifically put in writing?
2) Had she paid a deposit?
3) Had she signed a copy of your written work confirming acceptance of the work to be undertaken.

If she has signed a copy, paid you a deposit and you have made the work to the exact spec then she has got to pay up or commence proceedings with small claims immediately.

If you havn't got any of the above then you are unlikely to get anything if it goes further

IMHO

Rog

Rog

You definitely speaking from experience here.

I have had my fair share of awkward customers over the years.

This is why I always make sure I get a deposit, get the customer to approve the drawings and always run changes past them.

Mark

As Rog has said you may a have to chalk this up to experience.

I would write her a letter saying you will come and remove the work in say 4 weeks to give her time to get someone to make it, I would also put in the letter that you expect the goods to be in the same condition as you left them, and if she continues to paint them she has then accepted the work and will need to be paid for in full. This only costs a first class stamp.

Without knowing what you charged her and if you have had a deposit it is really difficult to know if you would get anywhere through the courts. But I suspect by changing the design you will probably lose and waste your time and money.

It certainly sounds as though someone has been putting ideas in her head, although I personally never use Mdf for kitchen door frames anymore as I have had bad experiences with water causing the Mdf to come apart.

Tom

I would agree with always getting a deposit, I always do unless it is customers who i have done good bassness with before. How much would it cost to remake a couple of items to as per drawing i would offer to undertake these works. i wouldn't consider small claims court but i would not chalk this up to experience there are plenty of programmes about such as Rouge traders house of horrors negitavly branding everyone in our industry but no one ever brands poor paying clients you did make a couple of errors, but correct those errors and payment should not be disputed.