Hello (plus a question about bandsaws)

[AJB Temple]

Hello. I am a new member and this is my first question.

By way of introduction, I have been woodworking for many years off and on, initially making musical instruments, then doing project work such as making kitchens and utility rooms at homes I used to live in. Most of this was with hand tools and small power tools. I am now equipping a proper workshop, almost from scratch, as I plan to build and fit out a large fully hand made kitchen and various other projects. This is not commercial.

I am looking acquire a bandsaw. I have read pretty much everything I can find here and elsewhere about bandsaws and the consequence of this is that I may purchase one much larger than I originally expected,. I have used them but never owned one. I am keen to avoid a purchasing error. I will be making some tables, an end grain butchers block (very large) and all kitchen caressing and some thick hardwood work surfaces. This is likely to include an element of resawing as well as general joinery work. I had originally thought that a hobbyist bandsaw, such as a Record 300 or 350 would be sufficient. Forum wisdom seems to suggest that to get good, accurate reliable performance, bigger is better. I have considered second hand usually English made Startrite 352 (for example) but these go for around £500 on eBay plus my time collecting it, whereas a new one (made in the Far East) with guarantee and delivery is around £1,000. Old looks risky in this context. I understand that this machine is about to be replaced with a new 16" design by the way.

I am also looking at the two Hammer machines, Jet 16" and the Record 400E. Maybe Axminster too (there is one near me).

I am limited in my home workshop as it is a long way from my house and the power supply is 16amp sockets and 6amp lighting on RCD. Single Phase. This appears to rule out any machine that draws a high amperage at start up. The Record 400E runs off a 13amp domestic plug so should be OK.

My question is: for the type of work I describe, will I really notice the benefit of a 16" machine? The largest planks I expect to use will be 10" wide at most and maybe 3" thick hardwood. This is to make a table so I will not be doing lots of work with wood like this.

The Record is sold as upper end hobbyist / light trade. But is really hobby machine. Just under £1,000 delivered. To upgrade to a genuine trade quality machine such as the Hammer N4400 adds easily £600, plus I would need to address the electrical supply. I have no need for continuos running all day long.

I know many of you have been through the dilemma and upgrade process. Not wanting to spend money needlessly I would appreciate some advice.

Adrian

 

[Alexam]

Hi Asrian and welcome to the best woodworking forum around.

If you haven't seen it, there has been a superb review of the Record BS400 on here - record-power-bs400-bandsaw-review-t78828.html by Random Orbital Bob and that helped me select that bandsaw and am very pleased with it.

With any bandsaw, there is a need to 'tune it' to get the best from it and this may help:-

THE BEST FROM A BANDSAW 'Alex Snodgrass of Carter Induistries has an excellent video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGbZqWac0jU on a tune up method that works well, but if you want to get the best use of your bandsaw on an ongoing basis, then the Steve Maskery DVD's will show you far more and they are a real investment. http://www.workshopessentials.com/shop/ '

I have only been woodworking in a small way since rertiring, but there are many experianced users on this forum that will probably be replying to your enquiry. I hope you manage to find something suitable.

Alex

 

[Brentingby]

I'll second Alex's recommendation for Steve Maskery's DVD's. Absolutely the best out there.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Like you, I am in the process of selecting my first serious bandsaw. My use is mainly hardwood with resawing. However, I do have what I believe may be some useful input for you.

Regarding your electrical supply. Whilst the electrical needs will depend entirely on the saw, if you have a 20amp type b MCB (as is typical) in your consumer unit and have not run large motors on it before, it may be worth changing it to a "Curve C"/Type C.

These allow a for a higher initial current load, which is great for starting motors on machines. I would say your 16 amp sockets will easily handle a bandsaw like the Startrite 352. As a comparison, my planer has an initial current draw on startup of 56amps. It runs on a 16amp socket back to a 20amp type c mcb. I can run that simultaneously with a 2 x 1000W extraction unit without tripping. I start in sequence. Cable will want to be 2.5mm if you're on a 20amp mcb.

If I am understanding your requirements correctly, from what I've been told, both on here and elsewhere, along with my own research, resawing 10" deep in hardwood will require more than the 352 or record 400. The manufacturers capacity claims are generally considered to be exaggerated, a bit like VW with their diesel engines :lol:. Also, resawing requires a wide blade and some of the smaller machines will not accommodate one of sufficient width. I'm thinking a good 1" blade would be needed for 10" resawing in hardwood.

I'm on the cusp of dropping my 10" resaw requirement because I think I'd require 20" under the guides for adequate performance in this application. That takes us up to industrial saws, which are pricey.

I've considered the Hammer N4400, Record 400, Startrite 352, so pretty much the same as you. My personal conclusion is that none of them would resaw as I wanted, except possibly the hammer, but I dislike what I've heard about their customer service. After a bad experience with a couple of (expensive) Chinese made machines I have decided not to go for a record, jet or axminster. I'll most likely plump for a 352, an older green one as apparently the modern examples are not up to the same standard.

This is still ongoing for me, so I will watch this thread with interest.

 

[Alexam]

Adrian, I forgot one important matter that could save you money. Whenever there is a tool show around, you can usually get £100 discount and free delivery. I had my machine from Paskins at Stourbridge and have put a couple of other members onto them, one being in Scotland, so distance is not a problem. Look up the various shows displayed on the general forum for help on this. woodworking-show-event-dates-2011-t38294.html

Plus the 5 year guarantee with Record.

Alex

 

[AJB Temple]

Thanks for the advice so far. I should make clear that I am making kitchen carcasses not caresses (the joys of auto correct..) unless my wife helps.

I am inclined to agree that I need to be less ambitious about resaw capacity. There is a limit to what my workshop or wallet can stand. What attracted me to Hammer was they are made in Austria. However, so far a very off hand sales guy has put me off a bit, and they are dreadful at replying to emails. This does not bode well for customer service I fear. However, every review I have read of the N4400 has been positive. The drawback is the 20am supply requirement and unpredictable lead time, along with charging £175 plus VAT for delivery. They say their machine is better and it may well be, but the price is getting "up there" for me. They have so far failed to answer my enquiry as to whether their smaller machine will run off 16 amp or 13 amp.

Thanks for the advice about a type C MCB. My electrician mentioned this as well and he is taking a look at my supply tomorrow. I really don't want to upgrade the cable if I can avoid it, as it involves about 150m of trenching from my consumer unit to my workshop.

Re Record. I have seen the reviews thank you for the 400E. I spoke to a helpful gentleman at Record, who also supply Startrite obviously, and they very firmly pushed me towards Startrite saying the Record is a hobby machine. The 400E looks like a lot of bandsaw for the money - very similar price wise to the Jet. In reality I am a light user, but for the sake of £400 I am prepared to buy a more robust tool if necessary, even though it lacks a mitre fence. I can recover the VAT so that helps. However, Craig the Startrite rep has not called me back yet so I am still wondering about the power supply, especially as there are no on-line specs yet for their new, about to be released tools. There may be deals around on the 352 or its larger capacity 502E brother soon I expect as stock gets run off.

As regards Jet, Axminster have some attractive pricing on at the moment, at around £1100 all in for a 16" machine. By and large this gets good reviews except for one guy who says that blade changes require the removal of 9 grub screws and a good deal of re-setting. This sounds tedious and has put me off somewhat. I do like the strong frame though.

Shows are a good idea. However, I am not shy about asking for discounts and I find that either they offer to knock something off or add something useful like wheel kits. I am not interested in free blades as the entire web universe seem to recommend Tuffsaws.

Adrian

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Mirrors my experience with Hammer sales precisely. Perhaps it's just how Austrians do business? I'm honestly not sure. I agree they look to be good products but I'm in two minds as to if they are actually manufactured in Austria. To have that label, it might only need assembly, with components made in China. Just a thought, would be nice to know for certain. I doubt it would run on 13 amp, though, as your extraction will require at least 5 amps to start with then there's your lighting, any other appliances on the same circuit etc.

I'd doubt you have 1.5mm cable going to your workshop, as that is for lighting I believe. It was installed in mine in error by the previous owner. You will probably have armoured 2.5mm back to the house.

I'd expect, and this is a semi-educated guess, the 352 to draw around 9 amps on full load, and the 502 perhaps 12 or so, so you definitely need 16 amps minimum. I have nothing to back that up aside from reviewing specs for what feels like a thousand machines this past few months.

I was initially attracted to Jet until I learned they are made in China. I have a hard time believing they are so dissimilar to the Axminster branded counterparts as to justify such a price difference. People do seem to like them, but I've been keeping my eye on Axminster's eBay listings and a LOT of Axminster/Jet equipment goes through there as returns, often inside a month of sale (according to their descriptions). I'm probably just being cynical though, as I am sure they sell a lot of units.

 

[Zeddedhed]

Hi Adrian,
I'm about to take delivery of a Record BS400 (hopefully tomorrow or Thursday) You're more than welcome to come and have a play when it's set up and working (probably within an hour and half of it getting here!!)

I'm just outside Tunny Wells in Pembury.

PM me if interested.

 

[AJB Temple]

Hi, I will zap you a PM. I live about 5 miles from you I think. Very interested in your experience. I just re-read Bob's review in full. He is clearly clued up and very positive. Maybe this machine will be enough for me.

 

[n0legs]

Hello and welcome
Did I read that right , "150 metres" ?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

AJ...I'm just catching up on your threads. let me add my ten penneth re the 400 vs the Startrite because only last Friday I had a good look at the new 16" Startrite and as you know I have the 400 and have owned it for 18 months now.

You say you wont be able to resaw 10" hardwood on the 400 and that's a reason to go Startrite. Please re-read my review a few posts in where I resaw a 12" Ash log in the green. It ate it for breakfast. I think absolutely critical to successful resawing is blade choice, appropriate tpi and sharp as a razor (from Tuffsaws of course). But the 400 is entirely capable of it, I have proven that objectively.
The new Startrite is a beauty all right and far be it from me to dissuade you from buying it. The differences apart from motor capacity etc are as follows (from the BS400 that is):

- the guides and guide assemblies are more robust though the frame and table look pretty similar
- the fence assembly is identical and in fact RP make play of the fact the 400 has "borrowed" some of the industrial features from Startrite, that's one of them.
- there is an unusually designed thin metal strip that attaches to the toolpost and glides through a metal slot, about as thin as a regular saw and just as bendy. This is to support and strengthen the toolpost when it raises and lowers.
- I didn't think the tensioning spring looked particularly more chunky but it does take a blade just beyond the inch so I guess it must be slightly more robust.
- there's a kick stop mushroom switch at floor level
- the bandwheels are more dense cast iron than the 400 but also not that much.

Bottom line, it's built for continuous rated industrial settings like commercial premises, schools etc and its a beauty, no question. But from a performance point of view. Given my testing, I honestly doubt there's much in it because the capacities are the same under the guides and I did test the 400 at max capacity. I think the differences are less about capacity and performance and more about longevity and safety. Its aimed at commercial and community users, not hobbyists so its going to be running for longer. But you're a hobbyist and the requirements you've documented in your various threads won't phase the 400 based on my experience, far from it in fact. To be honest, apart from the resawing of 10" hardwoods, I would have said the 350 would meet your needs, but that one operation may not be possible.
HTH

 

[YorkshireMartin]

AJ...I'm just catching up on your threads. let me add my ten penneth re the 400 vs the Startrite because only last Friday I had a good look at the new 16" Startrite and as you know I have the 400 and have owned it for 18 months now.

You say you wont be able to resaw 10" hardwood on the 400 and that's a reason to go Startrite. Please re-read my review a few posts in where I resaw a 12" Ash log in the green. It ate it for breakfast. I think absolutely critical to successful resawing is blade choice, appropriate tpi and sharp as a razor (from Tuffsaws of course). But the 400 is entirely capable of it, I have proven that objectively.
The new Startrite is a beauty all right and far be it from me to dissuade you from buying it. The differences apart from motor capacity etc are as follows (from the BS400 that is):

- the guides and guide assemblies are more robust though the frame and table look pretty similar
- the fence assembly is identical and in fact RP make play of the fact the 400 has "borrowed" some of the industrial features from Startrite, that's one of them.
- there is an unusually designed thin metal strip that attaches to the toolpost and glides through a metal slot, about as thin as a regular saw and just as bendy. This is to support and strengthen the toolpost when it raises and lowers.
- I didn't think the tensioning spring looked particularly more chunky but it does take a blade just beyond the inch so I guess it must be slightly more robust.
- there's a kick stop mushroom switch at floor level
- the bandwheels are more dense cast iron than the 400 but also not that much.

Bottom line, it's built for continuous rated industrial settings like commercial premises, schools etc and its a beauty, no question. But from a performance point of view. Given my testing, I honestly doubt there's much in it because the capacities are the same under the guides and I did test the 400 at max capacity. I think the differences are less about capacity and performance and more about longevity and safety. Its aimed at commercial and community users, not hobbyists so its going to be running for longer. But you're a hobbyist and the requirements you've documented in your various threads won't phase the 400 based on my experience, far from it in fact. To be honest, apart from the resawing of 10" hardwoods, I would have said the 350 would meet your needs, but that one operation may not be possible.
HTH

Hi Bob,

It's me that didn't think the RP 400 would resaw 10" hardwood. Interesting and valid points made, thanks for this as it helps me also.

What chance do I have at resawing ABW on the RP 400, say 10" depth and 2" thickness into 2 x 1" thick or thereabouts? Not sure how green ash would cut in relation to ABW.

This could sway me. Sorry for thread hijack but I think its relevant to the OP also?

Regards,

Martin

 

[custard]

Welcome Adrian. If you're not confident about your electrical supply you should take the N4400 off your list. I've got one and Hammer's power supply spec is only just in range, any small issues will have it tripping the breakers on start up, I forget the technical details but the electrician spoke to Hammer and I ended up with a slightly beefier breaker. The N4400 is a great bandsaw, but a lot of the advantages come if you're running other Hammer/Felder equipment which gives you a head start on the dust extraction pipework and allows swapping of the extension tables from other machines. For the items you described the larger Record machines should easily suffice.

Good luck.

 

[AJB Temple]

No legs - yes, it really is 150 metres unfortunately. The previous owner built a very substantial 10m by 4m insulated and clay tiled pigeon loft or shed, which is now free of pigeons and is becoming my workshop. It has power already but not as much as I would ideally like. I am investigating moling a new cable run at the same time as some water piping to an adjacent kitchen garden.

Hi Bob, thanks for the post. Your original thread was super helpful. I was not critical of the resaw capability of the 400E - I simply relayed what Record told me. Of course, they may be more motivated to sell Startrite. To be quite frank, if Hammer had been more sensible and helpful when I rang them I would have ordered one of their machines by now as even though my wife is German, she is keen for me to buy almost German product! The sales guy turned an almost guaranteed sale into a no sale within 2 minutes with his intransigent negativity. It was quite amusing really and it made me re-assess my needs and hence join here. Since then they have emailed with a bit more enthusiasm, but I am questioning my real needs (as opposed to male desire to acquire fancy kit) hence this thread. Why spend 2 grand when I grand gets the job done and easy for my PT.

I will take up the kind offer from Zeddedhead above and check out the Record. The fact that it runs off 13amp is attractive to me as I will need to run extraction as well.

What I should have said in my original post, is that this machine will also be used to cut tenons on a number of oak posts for a building. These will not be especially deep cuts (less stress on the machine than reassign large boards) but will be close to the maximum capacity of the machine. I could use a chainsaw but would prefer my bandsaw to do finer work I think on the main post joinery and the roof joinery. The biggest timbers I can cope with (lifting wise) are about 10" by 10". So we are looking at cuts up to 10" deep in dry hardwood.

I have a fairly large stock of very well seasoned English oak that I plan to cut into planks for flooring for our kitchen. Enough to do about 80 sq metres with around 1" boards or slightly over. None of these will be wider than 8" though (lots will be 6" and 4") and my longest length is only about 3 m. (Sorry for the metric imperial mix ;-). It would be helpful if the saw could cope with this, but I could also job it out so it is not a deciding factor.

Truth is I have managed without a bandsaw for 30 years and "want trumps need" a bit. If I am going to get one, now I have the space, I may as well get a good one. Without going crazy OTT.

Kind regards, Adrian

 

[AJB Temple]

Thanks Custard. Posts crossed. Electrician will advise me late this week.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

No legs - yes, it really is 150 metres unfortunately. The previous owner built a very substantial 10m by 4m insulated and clay tiled pigeon loft or shed, which is now free of pigeons and is becoming my workshop. It has power already but not as much as I would ideally like. I am investigating moling a new cable run at the same time as some water piping to an adjacent kitchen garden.

Hi Bob, thanks for the post. Your original thread was super helpful. I was not critical of the resaw capability of the 400E - I simply relayed what Record told me. Of course, they may be more motivated to sell Startrite. To be quite frank, if Hammer had been more sensible and helpful when I rang them I would have ordered one of their machines by now as even though my wife is German, she is keen for me to buy almost German product! The sales guy turned an almost guaranteed sale into a no sale within 2 minutes with his intransigent negativity. It was quite amusing really and it made me re-assess my needs and hence join here. Since then they have emailed with a bit more enthusiasm, but I am questioning my real needs (as opposed to male desire to acquire fancy kit) hence this thread. Why spend 2 grand when I grand gets the job done and easy for my PT.

I will take up the kind offer from Zeddedhead above and check out the Record. The fact that it runs off 13amp is attractive to me as I will need to run extraction as well.

What I should have said in my original post, is that this machine will also be used to cut tenons on a number of oak posts for a building. These will not be especially deep cuts (less stress on the machine than reassign large boards) but will be close to the maximum capacity of the machine. I could use a chainsaw but would prefer my bandsaw to do finer work I think on the main post joinery and the roof joinery. The biggest timbers I can cope with (lifting wise) are about 10" by 10". So we are looking at cuts up to 10" deep in dry hardwood.

I have a fairly large stock of very well seasoned English oak that I plan to cut into planks for flooring for our kitchen. Enough to do about 80 sq metres with around 1" boards or slightly over. None of these will be wider than 8" though (lots will be 6" and 4") and my longest length is only about 3 m. (Sorry for the metric imperial mix ;-). It would be helpful if the saw could cope with this, but I could also job it out so it is not a deciding factor.

Truth is I have managed without a bandsaw for 30 years and "want trumps need" a bit. If I am going to get one, now I have the space, I may as well get a good one. Without going crazy OTT.

Kind regards, Adrian

Righto. My apologies to you and the Yorkshire chap. I was reading a tad fast with one son asking for help with maths homework and the other asking how to enter a dungeon in world of Warcraft! Meanwhile the chickens done and I have to get him ready for swimming! Anyway, deep breath.....so......that's a fair bit of oak with some chunky sizes. I'm still confident it'll handle it. You'll go through a few blades mind but then that's brand non specific. Are you going to go and trial Zed's? If so might be worth taking an off cut of your 10x10 seasoned oak just to check it handles it to give you peace of mind. Make sure its a decent blade or the test won't count. Just today I resawed some sequoia which I appreciate isn't seasoned oak. It was circa 8" with a new 5/8" 3tpi sabre cut blade designed for green timber. Effortless is how I'd describe it. But I'd hate to give poor advice so as insurance why don't you do the test? You're welcome to come to me if Zed can't accommodate you. I'm in a village not far from Basingstoke.

What a shame about the Hammer commercial team. I regret to say I found their posturing rather nauseating and arrogant when I was reviewing their kit a while back. Record on the other hand have always given me exemplary service including post sale. A great example of a British company going from strength to strength after a management buyout in the 90's.

 

[AJB Temple]

Thanks Bob. Very fair and helpful. I have pm'd x and hopefully we can get together. Thank you for your most kind offer. Kind regards, Adrian

 

[dickm]

I'd have no qualms about a secondhand 352. They are built like the proverbial brick outhouse and are a dream to set up. Judging by the prices being quoted above, even £500 for a 352 seems a lot better value. (Mine will outlast me by a long time!)

 

[n0legs]

No legs - yes, it really is 150 metres unfortunately. The previous owner built a very substantial 10m by 4m insulated and clay tiled pigeon loft or shed, which is now free of pigeons and is becoming my workshop. It has power already but not as much as I would ideally like. I am investigating moling a new cable run at the same time as some water piping to an adjacent kitchen garden.

Wow, I can see the reluctance in a new supply.
Sounds like you have a great workshop there, but man that's gonna' cost a pretty penny to upgrade the supply.
Moling..... well I have mixed experience of that. It's good but I've seen some screw ups :lol: car accidents, lost moles and ending up where they shouldn't have :lol: I wish you luck with it.

I'll pass on a bit of advice.
When the electrician gives you his diagnosis and if it goes along the lines up uprating the cable, enquire about the next size up.
If the cost is not huge, get yourself some redundancy built in. It's always good to have some expansion capability in reserve, you never know what the next purchase could require. This woodworking is a slippery slope, there's always one more tool/machine needed (lusted over) :lol:

 

[AJB Temple]

Yes, but I am considering also installing a 32mm water pipe to the greenhouse and potting shed nearby, and if I do that I may as well run a heavy armoured and some CAT 7 in as well. I just didn't want to be in a rush simply to power a machine.