Handsaw comparison.

[MIGNAL]

Handsaw comparison with Paul Sellers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrqGxRsO1NE

I actually bought a couple of those cheap Spear and Jackson (one is a tenon saw) four or five years ago. I think the tenon saw came with some sort of universal sharpened teeth. I resharpened and set it to x-cut. Both saws had pretty basic handles that I reshaped. Both cut perfectly well. Good alternative to hardpoints and cheap enough for everyday rough (and fine) use. I've done everything with mine, from firewood right through to ripping Walnut.

 

[bugbear]

I resharpened and set it to x-cut. ... Both cut perfectly well.

Well done! Sounds like you found good quality raw materials to make a saw from

BugBear

 

[MIGNAL]

It wasn't difficult. I looked at the picture on the internet. The tenon saw had a brass back, a blade that could be resharpened. I was fully aware that the handles were a bit basic.
What could go wrong? Not a lot. I might buy another of the handsaw variety. Actually I think they have got cheaper since I bought these two. I certainly remember paying a bit more than the figure Sellers mentioned. Not a lot more though.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I can't honestly say I'm that surprised. Over the last few years, I've bought rather more secondhand saws than is strictly healthy, and playing about with them, I've come to the conclusion that the thing that makes the most difference to saw performance is whether it's sharp or not, followed by having the right amount of set for the job, and a straight blade. That includes premium saws and 'basic' ones - and hardpoints.

A comfortable handle makes a big difference if you've a lot of sawing to do, but most sawing jobs don't really take that long in the real world - except resawing, which is something I'd only do if I absolutely had to. I'd sooner buy the right thickness stock to start with. Ripping down boards can be a pain, eased a bit if you have a saw with big (sharp) rip teeth. Crosscutting rarely takes very long.

Taper grinding? Polished, waxed blades? Nice to have if they're there, but they don't really make much difference.

That said, there are some saws I just like more than others; and not necessarily premium ones, either. I suspect that's probably the case for most people - if you find a saw that suits you, for whatever reason, stick with it.

 

[D_W]

I can't honestly say I'm that surprised. Over the last few years, I've bought rather more secondhand saws than is strictly healthy, and playing about with them, I've come to the conclusion that the thing that makes the most difference to saw performance is whether it's sharp or not, followed by having the right amount of set for the job, and a straight blade. That includes premium saws and 'basic' ones - and hardpoints.

A comfortable handle makes a big difference if you've a lot of sawing to do, but most sawing jobs don't really take that long in the real world - except resawing, which is something I'd only do if I absolutely had to. I'd sooner buy the right thickness stock to start with. Ripping down boards can be a pain, eased a bit if you have a saw with big (sharp) rip teeth. Crosscutting rarely takes very long.

Taper grinding? Polished, waxed blades? Nice to have if they're there, but they don't really make much difference.

That said, there are some saws I just like more than others; and not necessarily premium ones, either. I suspect that's probably the case for most people - if you find a saw that suits you, for whatever reason, stick with it.

Taper grinding makes a big difference, but it won't be noticed until a saw is sharpened and set properly for hardwoods.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Not sure about that. Having used a few saws, both tapered and not, I'm not sure the difference is that great. Though no doubt you'll tell me I'm too incompetent to tell the difference.

Adam Cherubini has his doubts too - scroll down to the lower part of the page; http://www.adamcherubini.com/Long_Saws.html

 

[AndyT]

Our very own Fat Ferret was drawing attention to the resharpenable S&J saws back in November 2014

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/spear-and-jackson-brand-new-resharpenable-saw-t84744.html.

(Link easily found from the hand tools reviews sticky.)

 

[D_W]

Not sure about that. Having used a few saws, both tapered and not, I'm not sure the difference is that great. Though no doubt you'll tell me I'm too incompetent to tell the difference.

Adam Cherubini has his doubts too - scroll down to the lower part of the page; http://www.adamcherubini.com/Long_Saws.html

Adam Cherubini is also sure that you can't use a frame saw. I have a frame saw that I've used a few times without issue, and i'm not exactly top of the skill level for woodworkers. If I were making a lot of furniture and resawing boards, I would sure use it a lot more than a carpenter's style handsaw.

One of Adam's gimmicks is to adopt a lot of what was at Williamsburg, including the white saw design, which is sort of a crude design. The curator at williamsburg told the toolmakers no taper on the saws because he wasn't convinced it was done on saws of that era. I don't know what he knows about the double iron, but he's sort of disappeared from the scene. I know the former williamsburg toomaker quite well, and he wasn't happy with Adam's coming to presentations and taking pictures of their tools to copy, and without permission. I'm not speaking for him by mentioning that, either, he said that in the open on another forum.

Until you go ultra modern, it's quite difficult to find an untapered saw. It allows a saw to operate with less set, and when operating with less set, it allows you to avoid pinch of the plate a little bit more. It's yet another thing that gobs of professionals (when users were professionals) thought was worth paying extra for.

If we could even just trade all of the people spending their time on suppositions for people who wanted to instead duplicate exactly what disston was doing in 1900, we'd have better saws. Backsaws are exempt from this for the most part, though it sounds like some of them were tensioned, too. Modern backsaws are excellent. Modern panel and carpenters saws are still far behind what disston was making 115 years ago. Modern ego has everyone "improving" on old tools without even understanding how or why the old tools were made they way they were, and how or why the professional market shaped what they were.

 

[bugbear]

Adam Cherubini is also sure that you can't use a frame saw.

Like some others, the generality of Adam Cherubini's opinions exceeds that of his evidence.

There's nothing wrong with honestly drawing narrow conclusions from narrow evidence; indeed, if lots
of people provide well qualified narrow evidence it can add up to a good evidence base.

But I guess ego maniacs and professional bloggers need strong opinions.

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

Adam Cherubini is also sure that you can't use a frame saw.

Like some others, the generality of Adam Cherubini's opinions exceeds that of his evidence.

There's nothing wrong with honestly drawing narrow conclusions from narrow evidence; indeed, if lots
of people provide well qualified narrow evidence it can add up to a genuinely wide evidence base.

(it's hard for an induividual to have a range of skill levels, for example )

But I guess ego maniacs and professional bloggers need strong opinions.

BugBear

 

[D_W]

Adam Cherubini is also sure that you can't use a frame saw.

Like some others, the generality of Adam Cherubini's opinions exceeds that of his evidence.

There's nothing wrong with honestly drawing narrow conclusions from narrow evidence; indeed, if lots
of people provide well qualified narrow evidence it can add up to a good evidence base.

But I guess ego maniacs and professional bloggers need strong opinions.

BugBear

Pressure to write articles, too, I'd say. Get material out. I think Cherubini is a good guy, genuinely interested, and his page shows nice period work done. He just ...and here is my guard against the engineering solution for everything, he didn't understand the proportions of a frame saw that would make a frame saw operate for one person, and the design aspects. I had to build two frame saws to get one that worked. In reality, they work much better if two people are operating them to avoid wander and stay on a line, but if built right, they can be used by one person, and faster on wide wood than any handsaw and with less fatigue.

There's a lot of work to do there to come to that conclusion, and one who writes articles may not always have time to do it.

Chris Schwarz had a very specific blog post once where he said buying old tools was false economy. He has no idea really how to recondition tools to usable within a reasonable amount of time, and he was using the wrong materials to do it. It became beginners fact as soon as he wrote it. He's a nice guy from all accounts, but the pressure to provide opinions all the time provides the opportunity to talk about something he doesn't know much about. And he seems to do that on a regular basis.

There is always an audience for information that is 60% correct as long as the audience likes the messenger better than they like someone who is 100% correct. George Wilson is pretty close to 100% and the depth of his knowledge on most of the things he talks about is like a taproot on a tree a millennium old compared to the clover roots that most of us have. But lots of people would rather read Chris's blog than listen to George, because they like the aw-shucks delivery. George doesn't have much aw-shucks, nor should he.

 

[bugbear]

Adam Cherubini is also sure that you can't use a frame saw.

Like some others, the generality of Adam Cherubini's opinions exceeds that of his evidence.

There's nothing wrong with honestly drawing narrow conclusions from narrow evidence; indeed, if lots
of people provide well qualified narrow evidence it can add up to a good evidence base.

But I guess ego maniacs and professional bloggers need strong opinions.

BugBear

Pressure to write articles, too, I'd say.

That's what I meant by "need", at least in the second demographic I mentioned.

BugBear

 

[MIGNAL]

I think these modern Spear and Jackson are taper ground. I don't know if Sellers mentions it in the video but I have a memory of measuring the plate with my digital caliper. I'll check again.

 

[ED65]

I think these modern Spear and Jackson are taper ground. I don't know if Sellers mentions it in the video but I have a memory of measuring the plate with my digital caliper. I'll check again.

No I don't think so. He mentions the premium plane (being careful not to mention the brand) that he's using as a point of comparison is taper-ground and gives the measurements at the back and near the toothline.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Doesn't mention taper grinding in the spec, but who knows? A brand new taper-ground saw for £25 - now that IS a bargain!

http://www.spear-and-jackson.com/produc ... -back-saws

 

[MIGNAL]

I think it's tapered in a fashion. I'm getting 1.0 mm near the toothline and 0.90 mm at the skew back part, going back to 1.0 mm near the handle.
Actually scrub that. It's 1.0 mm at the toothline and 0.88 mm's. I make that taper ground. Mine is 26 " long and stamped 6 ie. 6 TPI. The print (etch!) states R88 I think, although it's now mighty feint. I don't know if they have changed. As I stated previously it's a good 4 to 5 years since I bought them.

 

[AndyT]

Fat Ferret answered the question about taper grinding in his review. He noted that it was not taper ground.

 

[MIGNAL]

Mine is definitely tapered, no question about it. I've just measured it several times. Don't go by the photo I posted previously. I reshaped and stained the handle. It originally looked just like the simple beech affairs. Perhaps mine is a different model, hence why I paid more than the price they are going for now.