green oak working tips wanted please

[Rogerthedodger]

hi everybody

I am building a "wendy house" with a difference. to cut a long story, I have decided to use oak framing and green oak boarding. Maybe a tiled roof or wood tiles rather than battened felt - something different for daddies little darling that is a bit more "hansel and gretel" rather than a glorified shed .

i have arrived here through a year of thinking and many changes of direction. My main concerns were the more i looked at the conveyor belt pine designs, i gagged. I wanted something untanalised and not needing preservatives. Also, i have done this before and I am fed up with paying a silly price for good pine and then watch it bend. I would rather buy say oak? that smells wonderful and a wood that i am expecting to bend.

So the current situation is that i have bought a ton of green oak - principally in 130 x 50 mm in 4.1 m lengths. yes - yes I know :?: thats what she who thinks she is in charge asked but the reason was that i thought it was a good deal and i could build a dozen more and flog them :lol: ha ha ha - she's still on the floor - obviously something i said. Anyway.........

I obviously intend to rip this into squarer dimensions to use for the frame and leave rough only removing maybe the exposed splintery edges . The floor will be some 50 year old pine boards. smell should be wonderful.

i have paid for some 6 inch green oak featheredge but it is not cut yet until i am ready to fix it.

what i need now is:

1.inspiration - I have hunted high and low on google for designs but not much gives me that eureka "thats it!" feeling
2.construction tips. i can nail it together ala my pine technique but has anyone got any better ideas that will allow a 5 year old to take up residence before she is 15? i could practise my m/t joints maybe?
3.i have no doubt that there are chasms to fall down on this so any tips on green oak construction greatly appreciated. To get the ball rolling - what are the best pins to use for fixing the featheredge slats to the frame?.

i am neither a cabinet maker nor a butcher of wood - somewhere in the middle.

I do have a few tools (more laughter coming from the floor) p/t, b/s, ras, etc so it's basically the above i need to get started - oh and a deck to put it on!!

cheers

Roger

 

[Adam]

Can't help too much, but if you are using dowels at all - pop them in the oven to dry them out so they shrink - then after they are in-situ, they swell slightly and causes them to grip in very tightly.

Have you tried a google image search for treehouse? There is loads of more custom versions.

Adam

 

[tim]

Roger

If you are going to use green oak then i would recommend pegged M&Ts. How green is it? Unless well stacked it will move A LOT if its very green.

BTW 50mm isn't very thick for structural posts - I think you need to consider some 4x4s or bigger as well.

Also when you say a ton, do you mean that or just a lot? A ton of oak (esp when green) isn't loads - probably about 30 boards in the dims you have.

Re feather edge etc seems to me that before you decide on how it should be fixed I think you need to have a design in mind ie being forced down a route just because you have some stock is not necessarily the best way DAMHIKT. (I know you've bought it but you could use it for other stuff.

To advise on design, its probably best if you give us a little more info: what is it that you don't like about the bought ones; what size are you talking about; what elements would you like to incorporate etc etc.

Cheers

Tim

 

[woodshavings]

Hi Roger,
One tip when machining green oak ... make sure you clean up cast iron surfaces on your saws, planner etc each night - otherwise they will rust!
John

 

[jasonB]

Hi Roger, got to rush now but will post some info in a while. 50mm is a bit on the light side for proper post & beam construction, I usually like 6x6" or 8x8"

here are a few pics of some green oak work that I have done

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v156/ ... st%20Deck/

Jason

 

[Rogerthedodger]

well now you have got me even more worried!! :shock: :shock: :shock:

as regards to the "greenness" the timber has been sticked dry in a workshop for over two months. the chap who sold it to me bought it for exposed beams in a clients roof. his comment was that it had dried out well?? How do i go about quantifying this please? is there a moisture meter? at what point is it ok to use for a frame? The featheredge is sold to be used as fencing so i have assumed that as long as it is not laying around after cutting, this too should be (note the "should") OK for cladding a hut?

As regards dimensions, it is only a girlies wendy house - certainly no more than 3m square. 8 x 8 posts?? Considering that mass produced pine jobbies have support framework of typically 32 x 50, my view was that me using dimensions of say 50 x 50 (or 60 x 50) with similar intermediate supports was substantial (as in a brick toilet??

There are 33 lengths at 130 x 50 x 4.1m and 5 larger with a width at 150mm. there are also some 120 x 150 posts but i was looking to use these for other projects and certainly not the frame of a wendy house?? have i really got this that wrong??

As regards the design that is the bit i am looking for inspiration on. It is not a treehouse though and i wanted to move away from the box shaped tongue and groove job with the felted ply roof.

I'll keep looking!!. please keep the tips coming - demoralising as it is!

cheers

roger

 

[johnelliott]

Roger, I share your views about the thickness, 50mm will be plenty for your purpose. I would probably try to find a way of joining two pieces in an L shape for the corners

John

 

[jasonB]

Given the section of you oak I would rip it in half to give you approx 63x50 and use this to form the walls like a traditional stud wall ie sole & head plates with vertical studs at 400mm cts. You could use M&T joints but I think it would be easier to just spike them together with nails. (my 40mm wide framing chisel would not leave a lot of meat either side of the mortice )Each wall panel can be built flat on the floor then raised up into position.

I would then clad the walls with 12mm ply or sterlin board to give some triangulation and keep the wind out as the green cladding will tend to curl a bit as it dries. You can then cover this with a layer of building paper if you wish before fixing the feather edge. The traditionalway is to use "rose head"nails but you could get away with flooring brads or ringshank nails.

Keep some of the timber at full size for rafters (and floor joists)and a few tie beams to stop the roof spreading, again cover the roof with ply & building paper then fix your shingles to this.

If the oak is really green you will see water ouse out as you drive in a chisel or auger bit, when oak is this wet chiseling it is like cutting cheese, but as it dries it gets harder

Have you looked at some of the free plan sites in the links section(top right) there are several outbuildings and play houses there, as a lot are american they tend to go for the wooden cladding look.

The main thing to bear in mind when designing/building this structure is that oneday it will become a workshop once your girls grow up.

Jason

 

[Tony Spear]

Jason, those are some pretty hefty mortices on your link. How did you cut them?

 

[Rogerthedodger]

hello again

thanks for the advice jason - much appreciated. I have already toyed with this idea of plywood lining/cladding . The advantage of cladding the walls was that it reduced draughts and increased the annual usage beyond warm summers. The disadvantage was that it negated the visual and aromatic advantages of using oak i the first place :?

The oak is currently stored in a dry garage which originally had both cedar bee hives and australian "stink" wood (a newish ripped railway sleeper peculiar smell :? ) Now the smell of oak is overpowering almost before you open the door. This is obviously more appealing to dad rather than my little one but you know, .....this is one of those little things that child-hood memories are made of :?:

what do you think jason - do the benefits of using the ply on the walls outweigh my desire to promote the aroma aspect?

Also what purpose does the building paper give?

As for fixings, I am stuck between nails - the ones in your link are superb - and screws :shock: :roll: Yes i know but the one advantage is that when we move I have the option of taking it to bits which will be more tricky if it is nailed?

as for it transforming into a shed one day :wink: i am sometimes unappreciative of she who must be adored's natural talents. (driving. reversing, navigating, fixing things, etc etc) She always takes me by suprise when it comes to sussing in a nano second my more nefarious ideas such as securing funds for a workshop by masquerading it as a play house for the chosen one. Suffice to say that as soon as this was mooted, i was warned off the concept of using it as a "store for your junk".

so thats that then :!:

thanks again for the pikkies your work looks both excellent and must be most satisfying.

Keep the tips coming please.

 

[-David-]

Roger

Can I recommend and American book by David & Jeanie Stiles - 'Workshops You Can Build'. Now although it says 'Workshops' the techniques apply to smaller scale work and there are examples of 'small person' scale buildings. Very well illustrated with graphite line drawings and colour photos of finished pieces. Not only an inspirational book but very much how to do it. Foundations, framing (including joints), well everything really. Try Amazon which is where I got it from. He has also done a book 'Sheds' but the Workshop one covers the same ground and goes much further.
How about a Cotswold oak framed 12'X12' cedar shingled roof with herringbone brick infills??

jasonB

I love work in progress pictures like that. I think I worry too much about foundations! Your framed building seems to be on blocks placed on the ground and the elevated decking on stones. Is it as simple as that ore is there more than the eye can see?

David

 

[jasonB]

Tony

The mortices are first drilled out with a 20mm auger bit in a Bosch SDS+ multibrill and then chopped out with a 40mm chisel They hold an excellent edge, only touched up the edge once while doing all the joints on that deck.

Roger

I don't think the smell of the oak will be a problem, the ply goes on the outside of the studs so all the oak framing is exposed internally and the oak feather edge will be on the outside.

The building paper is a waterproof layer, just the tarred paper will do but you could use Tyvek which does not let water in but lets water vapour out.

David

The title of the oak building gives a clue. The client had a large caravan/mobile home that he wanted to remove but the council were a bit reluctant to let him put anything back. The solution was to strip the caravan to just the chassis & wheels, reduce ground levels and prop the chassis on blocks(I didn't do that bit, thats why it looks a bit rough) A floor was then made ontop of the chassis from 200x50 with ply deck. I then built the frame & helped cut the roof. The frame was then infilled with 100x50 studs, ply skin, tyvek and oak featheredge and the roof covered in reclained clay tiles.

The deck foundations are on pads, dug down approx 750mm and poured a 600x600x150 concret pad, built up 450x450 piers to just below turf level with dence conc blocks laid flat in pairs. Then bedded the field stones onto of the piers and drilled for stainless steel location dowels. As some of the posts weighed about 10kg I used a mini digger to lift the timbers into place. It is all held together with 20mm dia oak pegs, free standing of the barn and rock solid. I also made the double doors that replace the window.

If you want to buy the property its up for sale at the moment if you have £1.35m to spare :lol:

 

[Rogerthedodger]

thank you all for the posts so far. i have had a look at the links as suggested and there is plenty of material both excellent and gross there!

spent the day at Chessington world of adventures theme park today as my girlie had a baker day off school. There is a wealth of old wooden buildings there actually !!. I spent the day getting nagged for not keeping up whilst they were queuing for the rides and I was studying jointing techniques and the like.

thanks again

roger

 

[jasonB]

Just a thought on the nail/screw choice. I would make each wall a separate panel just like a shed then if you need to move it in the future it will be a lot easier than completely stripping the whole thing down.

Jason

 

[Rogerthedodger]

yes thanks - that has been my style in the past. i was hoping to move away from that this time by being more adventurous with my joints. However you can't have it all ways and there may have to be an element of compromise between practicalities and idealism.

regards

Roger

 

[mbedford]

Roger

Just saw you post, it may be a bit over the top for your project but here are details for "the" book on green oak framing.

"Timber frame construction - All about Post and Beam Building" by Jack Sobon and Roger Schroeder" ISBN 0-88266-365-8.

Much quoted, less often acknowledged, it is the reference book to be found near anyone who builds in this fashion.

Even you don't work to the scale suggested in the book, you will find all you could poss' need. It is quite american in its out look, but as the inspiration for most of the framing that is done in america comes from "the old country" it is one of the few american books I have read and really enjoyed.

It is a very inspiring book that may well have you wishing to give up the day job.

Good luck

Martyn

 

[DaveL]

Martyn,

Welcome to the forum.