General Machine use training

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LyNx

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After reading a point Adam had made about kids, training and machinery.

How come an adult can purchase and use any woodworking machine without any type of training?

It sometimes makes my eyes water when I hear new comers into woodwork, purchasing all these new machines before even knowing how to use them.

Surely, purchasing a new SM, turning it on for the first time and running a large rebate in a section of oak can't be good if you haven't had any training and the only guides lines came from a book.

What do people think. Should the larger machines be supplied after a training season only?
 
Personally, I don't think so. People ought to take responsibility for themselves - the fear of lawsuits already has tool makers making them as safe as they reasonably can be, and if there was to be compulsory training, then who sets the standard, who sets the curriculum (one training session for each type of tool, or each model of router, say?). Then you will get a lot of opportunist lawsuits from careless people who will lose a finger and claim that their training was inadequate.

I think adults ought to buy these things if they want to, and if they are neglectful or foolish in their use, then that is their lookout, as long as the tool is free of dangerous manufacturing or design defects. As the father puts it in Swallows and Amazons when asked if his children can go sailing and camping in the Lake District, 'Better drowned than duffers, if not duffers won't drown.'
 
I feel it is up to the individual to use his or her common sense and get some training before using it. If you inisist on making training compulsory it then does no become freedom of choice and smacks of HSE smatterings. Still no matter what the rules are there will still be those who have an accident due to not using the machine correctly regardless of it being new or not! Scuba diving is another good comparison where people should be trained in the use of it but can still buy the equipment regardless. I do not use a spindle moulder and never have so far but common sense tells me that I should get advice or at least read something on it before using one. :wink:
 
LyNx":1pz310xl said:
How come an adult can purchase and use any woodworking machine without any type of training?

No different to err... letting people buy ladders?

If I recollect (quick check and yes I'm right) tea cosies are responsible 40 trips to A+E each year.

If you read below, honestly, your tablesaw will be right at the bottom of the list.

See here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story ... 80,00.html

he knitted tea cosy, once the centrepiece of British drinking habits, may be putting undue strain on the National Health Service, a government report has found.

Tea cosies incorrectly lifted off the pot or dropped on the floor are responsible for around 40 emergency hospital treatments a year, and cosy accidents have doubled in recent years.

The latest Department of Trade and Industry report on domestic accidents has found that the simplest tasks, such as serving tea or walking down a corridor, cause great problems to the British.

Almost 600,000 people need emergency hospital treatment each year after colliding with other people or objects such as armchairs.

More than 3,000 people a year are taken to casualty after falling over laundry baskets. Hundreds of others are treated after swallowing false teeth, or ingesting talcum powder.

Clogs, badly fitting or carelessly left on stairs, cause 300 accidents a year, closely followed by place mats (165), dustpans (146) and bread bins (91).

The DTI home accident surveillance report, which draws on hospital statistics for 1999, found that 76 people were killed each week in domestic accidents - more than died in road accidents.

The most vulnerable were pensioners and small children. Some of the biggest killers in the household were DIY tools, stairs, carpets and kettles of boiling water.

Certain mundane objects were more dangerous than others. Glossy magazines caused four times more accidents than chainsaws. Beanbags did more harm than meat cleavers.

The number of people who concussed themselves by running into a tree trunk rose to almost 2,000 a year.

Trousers presented an unnecessary hazard, with almost 6,000 people spraining, twisting or breaking a limb attempting to zip up their flies.

Hospital admissions for those attempting to pull up socks and tights reached a high of more than 10,000.

People were advised not to remove tights while drunk - around 100,000 accidents a year could be attributed to alcohol.

Sponge and loofah accidents declined, from 996 to 787 a year, and armchair-related accidents were down from 18,690 to 16,662. But injuries attributed to vegetable preparation remained unacceptably high at 13,132.

A DTI spokeswoman said the information had been collated to help to develop consumer safety policy, and an extra £1m had been made available to accident prevention groups.

The DTI runs its own campaigns on how to avoid falls in the home, drowning in garden ponds and cutting off fingers during DIY.

A spokeswoman for the Royal Society of the Prevention of Accidents said: "People can be injured by some quite unlikely items and more people are injured in the home than anywhere else.

"At work and on the roads we are regulated, but at home we let our guard down. You can do serious damage if you pull a tea cosy off and drop the teapot full of hot water on your foot. The most common accident is caused by slipping on a rug or carpet. These are serious issues about taking precautions in the home."

The Association of British Insurers said victims of mishaps involving items such as tea cosies or lawn mowers could claim on household insurance if they had accidental damage cover.

A spokesman said: "Personal injuries cover is very common, but you would have to have a major injury in order to claim. Dropping a tea cosy on your foot would not usually count, unless it had a teapot in it."
 
I tend to agree that there should be freedom of choice, but that only goes so far. If a person buys machinery that they are unsure of then assuming thay are sensible they will endeavour to find out more before using the machine.

When I bought my lathe I had it for about 4 months before I awtiched it on, and that was only after I'd been on a two day training course to be come familier with the workings and tools etc.

Even with training there is still the chance of someone getting injured on machines, as is evident from some of the post.
 
We are already living in an over regulated society, where too much personal responsibility has been taken away. Society as a whole would be much better if we all take personal responsibility for what we do, and the flip side is that those that are anti social, criminal or have accidents with machines cannot blame someone else for their errors.

A side issue is that when I got machines, it was very difficult to find training courses for those who are unable to attend full time. I would love to have a course on the Spindle Moulder so that I can utilise it better. I don't know why this machine seems to hold fears for people. Maybe in the old days, but modern blocks are very different. At the end of the day it is only a spinning cutting edge that can damage flesh the same as a planner, table saw or router.
 
Adam":14ha0337 said:
The number of people who concussed themselves by running into a tree trunk rose to almost 2,000 a year.

...
A DTI spokeswoman said ... an extra £1m had been made available to accident prevention groups.

See - we're preventing evolution from working. Unfettered Darwinism, that's what we need.
 
I'm generally in favour of offering some training for people buying woodworking machinery - some of the comments about "safe" practice on this forum and elsewhere make me think that it wouldn't be a bad idea. I'd regard it in the same vein as training offered by Land-Rover to their customers these days.

As to enforced, well that's a more thorny question. As someone in the trades training and standards are possibly quite rightly enforced upon me, but I cannot for the life of me think how it could be achieved in tyhe DIY market.

One thing I would like to see is manufacturers explaining exactly why devices such as unguarded stacked saw dado heads, table saw tenoning jigs, long through rip fences, etc can be dangerous and what can be done to execute such procedures safely (including alternative procedures/equipment). Maybe then we wouldn't have to see so much ill-informed and at times downright unsafe claptrap written about them.

Freetochat":qox9ogil said:
(snip about spindle moulders) ...at the end of the day it is only a spinning cutting edge that can damage flesh the same as a planer, table saw or router.
Actually the correct use of the spindle moulder involves giving an understanding of how to set up fences, the use of false fences and jigs, probably more than on any other machine than the pin router - get the fence setting wrong (too open, incorrectly set, etc.) and the resulting kickback can have dire consequences, although much less likely to be the cause of amputation than when I started using the spindle (square blocks or French cutters, anyone?). The most dangerous thing to do on a spindle moulder is probably ring fence work - in the hands of a trained operator a jig and ring fence set-up is a safe thing to use, but it requires a little training to understand what and why. For that one does need training.

Scrit
 
Freetochat":3je8434h said:
. . . . A side issue is that when I got machines, it was very difficult to find training courses for those who are unable to attend full time. . .

I think that this is perhaps more of an issue. If shops selling machinery actually had a list of courses available then perhaps those who would like to learn about their new machine might be able to. Perhaps those offering courses could advertise in tool shops. With regards to making training compulsory I'd agree with the previous comments about it being unworkable.

One related area that could be improved however would be with the instruction 'manuals' that are provided with the machines. In my experience these tend to be at best inadequate and at worst potentially contributing to accidents due to their complete lack of any technical details and use throughout of 'Chinglish'. A well written manual would go a long way in helping people use their new equipment safely.
 
Scrit":jtbz1fn6 said:
Freetochat":jtbz1fn6 said:
(snip about spindle moulders) ...at the end of the day it is only a spinning cutting edge that can damage flesh the same as a planer, table saw or router.
Actually the correct use of the spindle moulder involves giving an understanding of how to set up fences, the use of false fences and jigs, probably more than on any other machine than the pin router - get the fence setting wrong (too open, incorrectly set, etc.) and the resulting kickback can have dire consequences, although much less likely to be the cause of amputation than when I started using the spindle (square blocks or French cutters, anyone?). The most dangerous thing to do on a spindle moulder is probably ring fence work - in the hands of a trained operator a jig and ring fence set-up is a safe thing to use, but it requires a little training to understand what and why. For that one does need training.

Scrit

I wasn't trying to be flippant about the dangers with Spindle Moulders, sorry if it came over that way, but with correct precautions and modern equipment, they carry no more risk than using other machinery.
 
Hi Adam.

Re that Guardian report - I just don't believe it :? 2,000 people concussed by running into tree trunks :!:

And as for the next item about zipping up ones 'flies' .........well, words fail me :lol:

Must have been an April 1st. dateline on it surely :wink:
 
Losos":1uysvacj said:
Hi Adam.

Re that Guardian report - I just don't believe it :? 2,000 people concussed by running into tree trunks :!:

And as for the next item about zipping up ones 'flies' .........well, words fail me :lol:

Must have been an April 1st. dateline on it surely :wink:

Oh I don't know, seems perfectly possible to me.

Cheers,
Barry.

Who's managed to dislocate his thumbs taking his socks off, broken his ribs stepping aside to allow some ladies up the steps. badly sprained his ankle running between pubs and broken his arm falling off of a bus-stop. :oops:
Oh and then there will be a thirty something year old list somewhere like the Guardian one that has a kid badly bruising his ribs after falling off a trailer because he had been chased by a bear. :oops:
 
The first time I used a surface planer I put the wood through via the outfeed table - I didn't do it again.

I think it's generally accepted that the spindle moulder can be the most dangerous machine around - and I've proved it twice, but never again.

Complacency, casualness and undue haste causes the accidents. A basic grounding via a course or books/videos a knowledgeable friend will give you the ground rules and with common sense and a sense of self preservation one can proceed from there.

On a similar theme, I always work on my own - running machinery from 7am - to 3pm If I'm not home by 3.30pm Mrs Scrums has the next door units phone number.......we can minimize risks, but just getting in the car to drive to work is more dangerous.....(or it is if Mrs Scrums is driving)

Chris.

PS: My Erstwing hammer tells me to wear goggles & gloves + ear defenders.

PPS: Mrs Scrums reminds me I had the last accident!
 
mudman":2kak4yis said:
Barry.

Who's managed to dislocate his thumbs taking his socks off, broken his ribs stepping aside to allow some ladies up the steps. badly sprained his ankle running between pubs and broken his arm falling off of a bus-stop. :oops:
Oh and then there will be a thirty something year old list somewhere like the Guardian one that has a kid badly bruising his ribs after falling off a trailer because he had been chased by a bear. :oops:
Barry, are you in fact Frank Spencer's long-lost brother? :shock:
 
Paul Chapman":sgeu4dsa said:
Adam":sgeu4dsa said:
Clogs, badly fitting or carelessly left on stairs, cause 300 accidents a year

Hope DaveL is taking note :whistle: 8-[ :lol:
I read this in horror. :shock:
I have never had the proper training for any of the clogs I have. :whistle:
Should I be allowed to walk about anymore? :roll:
I must say I never leave then carelessly on the stairs, LOML would tell me off, that would be worse than ending up in A&E with a clog related accident. 8-[

There was an interesting incident in Tescos a few weeks ago, a young lady tried to push her trolly past me, there was not enough room. I was glad I had clogs on as the wheel of her trolly hit the front of the clog, her trolly came to a very sudden halt, and the young lady bent double as she walk straight into her now stationary trolly. Hate to think what my toes would have been like if I had shoes on. #-o
 
Scrums":ygfbewfu said:
PS: My Erstwing hammer tells me to wear goggles & gloves + ear defenders.

On the barrels of my shotgun are stamped the words: "Refer to safety manual before use".

In the Smith and Wesson instructions for a .45 handgun, I found the message "Firearms are dangerous and can cause serious injury and death if they are misused or used inappropriately."

No kidding?
 
Machines and training? Hmm - good question.. :-k

Personally,I think courses should be available,but not compulsory.
I like the idea of machinery retailers advertising locally-run training courses.

Andrew
 
Freetochat":387i43dk said:
I wasn't trying to be flippant about the dangers with Spindle Moulders, sorry if it came over that way, but with correct precautions and modern equipment, they carry no more risk than using other machinery.
In fact the relative dangers of different machines are really a bit of a moot point. I'm old enough to have seen and read about practices in some trade shops which make my toes curl - and from people who really are supposed to know better...... like the "trainee" who decided to fiddle about with a running band rack (hydraulically-fed band resaw) when the operator was at the loo - he ended up having part of his buttocks surgically removed whilst still enmeshed in the feeder..... So overall I see any training as a good thing.

Scrit
 
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