Gas safety check on rental property. How much?

[cmoops2]

Lookinh

Let me start by saying I don't doubt the expensive training, the unpaid time off and the cost of kit etc. And stuff has to paid for - van, phone, training, subs etc.

But no gas engine has kit (roll cab, tools, timing tools that only work on one brand\model) running into 10's of thousands if not more. And that's before the eye-watering costs of diagnostic kit and the subscriptions to the manufacturer as the kit has to talk to the "mothership" before allowing many procedures on most modern cars.

Any gas engineer or electrician wanting to charge close to £120 plus VAT - is taking the proverbial.

Looking back over this thread, I think there may be some 'confusion' between the rates being charged by gas operatives and and motor mechanics - the disconnect being that the rates for motor mechanics are being expressed as hourly rates whereas those for a Landlords Gas Safety Test Report / boiler service are for the job in toto ...

 

[HappyHacker]

I retired a few years ago as an electrician and therefore my prices for what was a PIR and then became a EICR are a little out of date. Also the rules have changed and despite over 40 years of experience and lots of C&G exam passes I can no longer get registered for Part P without spending over £3,000 and a lot of time. A lot of experienced electricians are caught out by this change.

An EICR on a small one/two bed house with no previous report available would take me about 1/2 a day plus travelling. I did a few that were adjacent to each other and I could do two a day. I would then spend about 1 -2 hours writing up the results and writing an explanation of the results. Even if the result was satisfactory there would be some comments about the installation. I would charge about £120 for this. If documentation from a previous test was available this time could be shorter.

I saw a lot of EICRs done by others and there were a fair number of very poor ones: "Electricians" unable to recognise: an RCBO from a MCB or tinned copper from aluminium cable.

Obviously incorrect test results, failures on things that should be a Code 3(requires improvement) at worst.

Since the introduction of mandatory EICRs for rental properties there has been a shortage of experienced testers and a proflifaration opportunists who regard the EICR as an opportunity to get work. On an electricians forum there have been many example of the really poor EICRs with incorrect codes.

 

[dgs2001]

Some mighty big assertions in there. I get this done every year on our rental property. The company that does it has been in business for many years and are fully licensed for gas and electrical work. They are very good, extremely responsive and very reasonably priced. That is down to the proprietor who is a real gent who looks after his customers.

I suggest you pull your neck back in a bit.

My Necks fine. My Assertions are fine. I will add another -

The company will likely be doing this as a "loss leader"


My response was based entirely on my 30 years experience within the industry and the last 10 years running a Mechanical & Electrical Building Services Company.


I'm glad you have faith and confidence in the company you use, and of course I make no direct suggestion that they are not doing a wonderful job.
Looking after customers is indeed the nature of the industry and a large part of the key to running a successful business.

 

[dgs2001]

It's worth noting that a 'Gas Safety Test Report' comprises a series of visual checks and does NOT include a tighness test of the gas supply (unless the customer specifically asks for one). It's also worth noting that in addition to the mandated a visual 'once-over'and checks to confirm satisfactory operation of the appliance controls and safety devices, the overall condition / performance of the appliance is established by a quick check using a FGA (Flue Gas Analyser).

Unfortunately, many people equate a 'service' of a gas appliance to a 'service' of a car (where actual things are done - eg: plugs, oli, filters etc are changed). A bolier 'service' is somewhat of a misnomer because it is invariably achieved by nothing more than those items covered by a Gas Safety Test Report. Gone are the days when the gas operative would remove boiler casing, hoover out the burner (removing scale depsits that fall from the heat exchanger etc). Even emptying / cleaning a condesate trap seems to much bother for some guys.

When a customer asks me to 'service' an appliance, the first thing I ask is: "what's wrong with it ?" If there is a known problem, that 'service' now becomes a repair (which is invoiced at a different rate) ....

Not sure this is completely correct.

A Boiler service's includes a check on the pressure within the expansion vessel, located within the boiler. These often loose pressure over time and should be recharged by the engineer at the service visit if necessary.

 

[paulrbarnard]

My Necks fine. My Assertions are fine. I will add another -

The company will likely be doing this as a "loss leader"


My response was based entirely on my 30 years experience within the industry and the last 10 years running a Mechanical & Electrical Building Services Company.


I'm glad you have faith and confidence in the company you use, and of course I make no direct suggestion that they are not doing a wonderful job.
Looking after customers is indeed the nature of the industry and a large part of the key to running a successful business.

How do your ‘assertions’ fit with the fact that the company I use has been in business for many years, has a large client base in our area and delivers great results? From your statements they should be out of business or been instrumental in the deaths of tenants.

Seems your neck is not only out it’s brass too.

Perhaps you could let us know the name of your firm so those in your area can avoid paying over the odds.

 

[Dolau]

Just be glad you don’t have a property in wales

 

[paulrbarnard]

Just be glad you don’t have a property in wales

Actually I just bought one in Cardiff as I have a daughter studying to be a nurse there. I decided I might as well pay her rent to myself rather than to another landlord. The extra stamp duty was the first kicker… we need to do the landlords training now.

 

[Agent_zed]

main dealers charge £120 plus vat per hour

This price doesn't necessarily reflect the quality of the work. The BMW garage I took my old bmw to (for a recall part so I wasn't paying) is a huge glass fronted building with leather sofas and a free coffee machine (not a plastic cup type) and a gentleman who was one of a few service representatives in addition to the receptionist (they certainly didn't do any of the actual mechanics). This is where part of the £120+vat labour charge was going. Will they do a better job than the £50+vat mechanic down the road in an old unit with one receptionist?

Same with some gas fitters when they turn up in a brand new VW transporter with custom decals on the side and a private plate. Sure it looks professional but the customer is paying for that.

I'd advocate for a fair price for a fair job, I don't want to pay over the odds so you can pay for a super swanky van. But I also would prefer if they are able to afford turn up in a reasonable vehicle.

 

[dgs2001]

How do your ‘assertions’ fit with the fact that the company I use has been in business for many years, has a large client base in our area and delivers great results? From your statements they should be out of business or been instrumental in the deaths of tenants.

Seems your neck is not only out it’s brass too.

Perhaps you could let us know the name of your firm so those in your area can avoid paying over the odds.

Wow.

I'm happy that my neck is both wound in and not shiny.
Not so sure about yours though which seemingly based on your own singular experiences has been well and truly pushed into a fantasy realm way above the parapet !

At no point have I said "they should be out of business" and at no point have I said "been instrumental in the deaths of tenants"
For the record these are your interpretations and not mine.


Clearly I have not explained this well enough for you to comprehend so here goes -

An EICR carried out properly on a small property with reports completed and issued etc as posted elsewhere within this thread is half a days work. Depending on the number of gas appliances at the property a landlord gas inspection with reports completed and issued may take 2 hours or more.

Lets assume that we have a single sole trader multiskilled engineer who has forked out the circa £10000.00 in training to obtain both electrical and gas certification, he/she/they have also forked out thousands more on calibrated equipment and relevant scheme memberships to allow them to operate in both fields.

Your initial post suggested £87 for both.

Looking at the Sole Trader scenario, trading under the vat threshold so no vat to be added.

After income tax is deducted at 20% that leaves £72.5 for what we have seen is at least 6 hours work and that's not including travel.

I'm not sure how you ended up with enough money to be buying rental property, but I'm damn sure it wasn't by earning £72.50 for a six hour day


And this scenario gets worse for a company -

An on the books Gas engineer or Electrical Engineer will be paid somewhere around £17 to £25 depending on skill set, length of service, qualifications and location within the UK. We wont be silly and suggest a multiskilled engineer is double that, we can just stick with £17

So lets say the company charges £87 for 6 hours work (again we will pretend there's no vat involved).
Having completed the task, the engineer now has nothing to do for remainder of the day as his task has used most of his 8 hours that he gets paid for.
There's no point in him driving to another job which he cant complete in the remaining 2 hours, so he slowly makes his way back to base.

Using our suggested pay of £17 per hour, come pay day the engineer is paid 8 hours @£17.00 =£136.00 less the tax and pension.
The company then pays Employers NI and Pension on top of this deduction to HMRC so the actual cost to the employer is circa £176.80


So in order to keep your business (Landlord) compliant neither a sole trader nor a company can offer the service you receive for the money you receive it for without charging higher prices in other areas to offset the "Loss Leader"

Perhaps you'd like to check with said company about which work they are offsetting their losses against such that those in your area can avoid paying over the odds

 

[paulrbarnard]

Wow.

I'm happy that my neck is both wound in and not shiny.
Not so sure about yours though which seemingly based on your own singular experiences has been well and truly pushed into a fantasy realm way above the parapet !

At no point have I said "they should be out of business" and at no point have I said "been instrumental in the deaths of tenants"
For the record these are your interpretations and not mine.


Clearly I have not explained this well enough for you to comprehend so here goes -

An EICR carried out properly on a small property with reports completed and issued etc as posted elsewhere within this thread is half a days work. Depending on the number of gas appliances at the property a landlord gas inspection with reports completed and issued may take 2 hours or more.

Lets assume that we have a single sole trader multiskilled engineer who has forked out the circa £10000.00 in training to obtain both electrical and gas certification, he/she/they have also forked out thousands more on calibrated equipment and relevant scheme memberships to allow them to operate in both fields.

Your initial post suggested £87 for both.

Looking at the Sole Trader scenario, trading under the vat threshold so no vat to be added.

After income tax is deducted at 20% that leaves £72.5 for what we have seen is at least 6 hours work and that's not including travel.

I'm not sure how you ended up with enough money to be buying rental property, but I'm damn sure it wasn't by earning £72.50 for a six hour day


And this scenario gets worse for a company -

An on the books Gas engineer or Electrical Engineer will be paid somewhere around £17 to £25 depending on skill set, length of service, qualifications and location within the UK. We wont be silly and suggest a multiskilled engineer is double that, we can just stick with £17

So lets say the company charges £87 for 6 hours work (again we will pretend there's no vat involved).
Having completed the task, the engineer now has nothing to do for remainder of the day as his task has used most of his 8 hours that he gets paid for.
There's no point in him driving to another job which he cant complete in the remaining 2 hours, so he slowly makes his way back to base.

Using our suggested pay of £17 per hour, come pay day the engineer is paid 8 hours @£17.00 =£136.00 less the tax and pension.
The company then pays Employers NI and Pension on top of this deduction to HMRC so the actual cost to the employer is circa £176.80


So in order to keep your business (Landlord) compliant neither a sole trader nor a company can offer the service you receive for the money you receive it for without charging higher prices in other areas to offset the "Loss Leader"

Perhaps you'd like to check with said company about which work they are offsetting their losses against such that those in your area can avoid paying over the odds

Wow I apologise for saying you have a brass neck. I realise after this post brass neck doesn’t even begin to cover it.

The company I use has been in business for years, does a great job and has a large customer base. The price I started was what they charged me for my last inspection in November last year for both gas and electric. I could post the receipts but really don’t feel I need to prove anything to you. I strongly object to the inference I am lying.

Your arrogance in stating that they are working at a loss is breathtaking. Perhaps you should look at your expenditure and determine why your cost base is so high.

You are now the third person to make it to my very exclusive ignorant list.

 

[dgs2001]

Wow I apologise for saying you have a brass neck. I realise after this post brass neck doesn’t even begin to cover it.

The company I use has been in business for years, does a great job and has a large customer based. The price I started was what they charged me for my last inspection in November last year for both gas and electric. I could post the receipts but really don’t feel I need to prove anything to you. I strongly object to the inference I am lying.

Your arrogance in stating that they are working at a loss is breathtaking. Perhaps you should look at your expenditure and determine why your cost base is so high.

You are now the third person to make it to my very exclusive ignorant list.

hehe.
If my accurate and informative posts have made it on to your rather exclusive list then I'm honoured.
May i extend to you an automatic enrolment to my Belligerent list. It will be lonely, your the only member

I note you have no retort for the logical, accurate and sound break down I presented just a further personal attack.

I will decline your offer of trolling my company, but thanks anyway.



With regard to the sound, logical and somewhat indisputable illustrations I posted above, believe me or believe me not, the choice is yours and quite frankly it makes no difference to me.

I stand by my original point that £171 is on the expensive side but not necessarily excessive. I also stand by my point that with regard to your £87 checks this is either a "loss Leader" for the reasons i have pointed out or is not being carried out properly.

Remember the saying "If something looks too cheap..... "

Again you infer something I did not say. Clearly the company cannot be working overall at a loss, but as this element of work IS being completed at a loss then additional revenue must be gained elsewhere to even this out.

This is how many service industry's operate. British Gas are well known for servicing boilers at a "loss leading" fixed fee just to get through peoples doors in order to sell new boilers and/or maintenance plans.

I'm happy for you that as a customer you are able to take advantage of your local company and make use of their extremely cheap services.

 

[Spectric]

and there were a fair number of very poor ones: "Electricians" unable to recognise: an RCBO from a MCB or tinned copper from aluminium cable.

Good old domestic installers, you only get what you pay for !

 

[BucksDad]

I don't mind paying a premium for good service when the value is demonstrated. The company that do my boiler servicing also fitted the boiler almost 2 years ago. They have an office, 5 engineers and been trading a fair while. At the time I got some quotes including a sole trader who wanted to charge 2k less. Company sends quote, brochure and everything explained. Sole trader turns up stinking of cigarettes and looking fairly disheveled and just gives a verbal price. We also wanted a Drayton smart thermostat put in but he wouldn't do that and said I'd have to arrange for the electrician myself whereas the company said no problem.

When said company turned up they had vans which were racked out, tools properly taken care of. Well dressed engineers who also put on shoe covers and laid out dust sheets where necessary.
I think as part of the boiler servicing contract I also get 2 call outs per year for any plumbing if needed - great peace of mind if I happen to be away for work and my wife can just get them round.

I've also had one electrician round who charged premium prices but I'm fairly sure he and his colleague were stoned and when we planned for some more expensive air vents but in the end went for cheaper ones, he tried to charge me the same price.

I've tried a few mobile mechanics as well - had a few of them turned up stoned as well. Seems to be a reoccurring theme...

 

[Jonm]

Gas boiler service, check gas hob and landlords certificate £77 including VAT. Someone I have used for years, ex British Gas and he is very thorough.