Front door project

[Mark_85]

Any suggestions on a suitable wood for making an external front door with and door frame with? Meranti / Idigbo ? Or am I barking up the wrong tree again?

It will be painted so the look of the wood is not critical.

Thanks in advance

 

[Jacob]

Redwood. Linseed oil paint.

 

[undergroundhunter]

Redwood. Linseed oil paint.

+1

 

[Mark_85]

So it wouldn't need to be a hardwood then?

 

[RobinBHM]

Hardwood options: red grandis, iroko, sapele, utile

Softwood options:douglas fir

Accoya of course

I mostly use iroko as it is vrry durable and stable in service, but a lot of people dont like it. Most jobs we do are iroko frames and accoya for opening leaves

Red grandis is a stable cheaper hardwood with moderate durability.

Idigbo is not great, difficult for morticing and screwing, sap problem leaking from end cuts unless fully sealed.

I have had too many recalls with softwood doors to recommend it, although that is with finishing with water based paint not linseed. I find softwood exhibits too much movement with bottom rails expandibg and ending up below stile ends.

 

[Jacob]

...
I have had too many recalls with softwood doors to recommend it, although that is with finishing with water based paint not linseed. I find softwood exhibits too much movement with bottom rails expandibg and ending up below stile ends.

Bin there dunnit!
With linseed oil paint redwood doors will last for very many years.
I didn't discover this for a long time and am horrified at some of the work I did in the early days now having been replaced.
Modern paint, water-based especially, is the principle cause of the failure of old and new external woodwork.
It's not just a detail it's a substantial eco disaster, leading to the popularity of plastic, or preservative impregnated hardwood.
People are catching on at last!

http://www.greenshop.co.uk/natural-pain ... aints-174/

https://oricalcum.uk/

 

[lurker]

I looked at this last year.
Like you I wanted it painted, so in the end I bought a plastic one!
The paint finish is two pack so I'll never have to paint it
It has a low theshold and the white frame is no wider than the wooden equivilent
Cost me £650 all in (the locks alone would have cost £90) but i did fit it myself.

Like everything else there are good, bad and downright ugly, but careful selection can find something quite nice.
After I had fitted mine 2 neighbours bought doors from the same place.

 

[rhrwilliams]

A well made door made out of quality softwood will be cheaper and will outlast a composite or PVC door.

+3 for Linseed paint - paint it before you hang it.

edit - Jacob is also quite right in his post and the entire industry is turning at the moment and 3 years ago people looked at you funny if you asked them to use Linseed pant on a job, now most contractors (conservation ones anyway) have used the stuff and are set up for it. You can also buy the paint commercially in large quantities where a few years ago this was more difficult.

 

[Jacob]

A well made door made out of quality softwood will be cheaper and will outlast a composite or PVC door.

+3 for Linseed paint - paint it before you hang it.

edit - Jacob is also quite right in his post and the entire industry is turning at the moment and 3 years ago people looked at you funny if you asked them to use Linseed pant on a job, now most contractors (conservation ones anyway) have used the stuff and are set up for it. You can also buy the paint commercially in large quantities where a few years ago this was more difficult.

I've been using it for about 10 years. When I first started going on about it I got complete scepticism and sarcasm on the forums. Well it's catching on at last. :lol:
I'll certainly never be using anything else externally.
Modern stuff is OK inside, and true; you do get quicker drying, brighter colours, shinier surfaces, but it just doesn't weather.

 

[RobinBHM]

Im going to buy some of this linseed paint to try, we deal with quite a few listed projects each year so traditional options are alsays useful to learn about.

Of course its not a suitable product for factory finishing, we need products that can be sprayed quickly.

Premature paint failure in joinery is significantly due to detailing of the joinery not the paint.

Also the UK experiences extremely damp, wet weather and a quite a few paint manufacturers are European so those paint formulations and application advise is biased towards drier climates.

 

[Jacob]

....Im going to buy some of this linseed paint to try, we deal with quite a few listed projects each year so traditional options are always useful to learn about.
.....

Have a go you won't regret it (probably!). You will need to be aware that it's very different from modern paints in a lot of ways and you'll have to follow the instructions carefully. It's a lot easier to use than modern paint so that alone could make it worth the effort.

Premature paint failure in joinery is significantly due to detailing of the joinery not the paint......

I can assure you, from 50 years of general bodging, including 30 years of careful period restoration/repair with extremely careful detailing - that modern paint is a disaster.
The trouble is it takes a long time to work this out:
Things fail, usually slowly - it may be 5 to 10 years before a problem shows. You start by blaming the decorator, then wonder about detailing, frequency of maintenance, then the quality of the wood - fast grown, unseasoned? etc, is it the lack of lead in the paint? and so on.

My very first big paint fail experience was years ago when I painted my sisters house - a 30s semi. Probably 20 or more years since last being painted.
I did it 100% by the book proper job using all the recommended materials. 4 years later it started to go, 10 years later they put plastic windows in. I had no idea of the cause. This story repeated all over the country of course.

No it's modern paint that's the problem, it made untreated redwood non viable for external joinery, destroyed old joinery where stripped and repainted and brought about the plastic window revolution.

PS I don't see why it can't be sprayed before fitting - the raw linseed primer at least. Could be done in a controlled environment at a high room temperature, 25 ish etc?

 

[rhrwilliams]

Taken from a thing I wrote for something else.....

Traditional paints were made from white lead (white lead is the material, not the colour) mixed with pigments and sometimes Linseed Oil
Lead paints are flexible, move with the timber, do not trap moisture and require little maintenance. These were commonly used along with solvent paints up till the end of the 20thC.

This is in contrast to modern gloss paints which are generally made from Alkyd / Acrylic that essentially form a impervious crust that will not move with the timber, trap moisture in the timber, encourages rot and will accelerate failure.

Because of EU rules and increased H&S legislation, white lead and solvent paint is not longer easily available. It was until a few years ago available for some aspects of conservation of listed buildings. It is hard to get hold of now, but Red Lead based paints are still available for the boat building market.

Linseed Oil paints are a modern alternative to Lead based paints, which have many of the benefits of the lead based paints but none of the H&S issues. They are flexible, vapour open, and will not hold moisture in the timber.

 

[rhrwilliams]

Ive tried spraying linseed and it doesn't work as its too thick. You can thin it using Turps but then its too thin and it doesn't really work - you need to work it in the grain which spraying won't do.

 

[Jacob]

...
This is in contrast to modern gloss paints which are generally made from Alkyd / Acrylic that essentially form a impervious crust that will not move with the timber, trap moisture in the timber, encourages rot and will accelerate failure.
.....

The paradox is that the paint itself weathers very well - the wood behind may be waterlogged and rotten but the paint layer is still shiny and bright - even as it flakes off and falls to the floor.
Linseed oil paints are quite different - they are not shiny and bright and and they weather on the surface - steadily fading and going chalky.
BUT the wood behind stays in good nick even after the paint has weathered off completely and there's just a vestige of oil left.
This explains something which I've often encountered which puzzled me; how very neglected old joinery in derelict buildings could still be hanging together when almost paint free. The answer being linseed oil paint; the wood is the last thing to go.

It really is a game changer - just as Accoya comes on to the market in a big way it becomes redundant as new (old) paint technology brings redwood back into favour.

 

[richarnold]

I would thoroughly recommend Accoya wood . 50 year unconditional guarantee, and it will not shrink or expand whatever the weather. as long as you use a stain blocking primer you can paint it with whatever you want. we did some sash windows about 7 years ago and painted them with dulux weathershield water based undercoat and gloss and they look as good today as the day we installed them. I drive past them every morning on the way to the workshop. Because the wood never moves the paint never seems to break down.

 

[Mark_85]

So basically I can use redwood with linseed oil paint

or

Accoya with normal undercoat and weather paint

Thanks for all your comments, if all goes well I shall post up some photos of the door

 

[Jacob]

I've no experience of Accoya at all so can't comment. Sounds interesting though.
But redwood plus linseed oil paint I assume must be cheaper and "greener"; no industrial treatment, organic materials used throughout.

 

[richarnold]

Accoya wood is possibly the most enviromentaly friendly wood on the market. The only "chemical " used in processing it is acetic acid, IE Vinegar. The vinegar left over is recycled and used by food company's so hopefully nothing too toxic there!. Coupled with that is the fact it will possibly last hundred's of years so no early replacement. The timber is not the cheapest, but in the long run the costs of repair and decoration will far out way the initial costs Accoya is also sold in joinery friendly sizes so there is very little waste.

 

[Doug71]

Love Accoya, wish I could convince my customers to use it for everything but the price does put them off. More and more people seem to be using it yet the price just keeps going up, hoped it would come down as it became more popular.

As others have said if you look long term it is not as expensive as it seems.

I will be giving linseed oil paint a try, sounds great.

 

[RobinBHM]

Accoys is plantation grown radiata pine from New Zealand, actelyation process is in Arnhem Holland.

Price is about £1800+vat /cubic metre -a bit cheaper than oak.

Available in solid and laminated.

Solid typicaly:

25mm
38mm
50mm
63mm
75mm

Widths 100mm, 120mm, 150mm, 175mm, 200mm

But not all combinations, 63 x 120 and 63 x 200 for door sections is common

63 x 150 for doubling up on sash stiles, rails.

Etc.

Almost no movement in parts

Bad points: will corrode steel fixings or zinc, must use stainless

Also timber is brittle and somewhat soft so sanding must be gentle.