flattening LN blades

[deirdre]

I am unreservedly guilty of announcing my upcoming book and dvd's, in a not very subtle way.........I feel I should apologise for that.....

Please don't -- some of us are waiting for the next installment.

I have a relationship with L-N, as Thomas is a good friend and publishes my DVDs. I have passed on a couple of ideas to him about tools I would like to use as do many other professional and amateur woodworkers. I am not an employee.

I'm always interested to see what they'll come up with next.

 

[MikeW]

Mike,
...
I am unreservedly guilty of announcing my upcoming book and dvd's, in a not very subtle way.........I feel I should apologise for that.....

I on the other hand do not feel you owe anyone an apology--part of the evil of business is promotion. I feel the manner in which most people self-promote doesn't cross ethical boundries. If anyone were to judge these matters, I would probably be found more wanting than you.

However, I do try my best not to denigrate products on the internet, and do not publish reviews on the web. Most of my posts cover technique, which I'm sure you know, I am passionate about.

Aye, and I think your passion is infectious in a good way. Enthusiasm makes for a good teacher.

...I also have great respect for Rob Lee, who I met at the APTC show, and note with interest the enthusiasm of his customers. One day I hope to write about the bevel up jack.

Derek's recent experience, will remain burned into my mind, when and if any future reviewing is attempted.

And that was the crux of why I responded. It appeared that in the attempt to respond to Derek's circumstances, Rob's ethics were being called into question. Quite the opposite of respect--but that is only my understanding of how I read the post. I probably took exception simply because there is a well known plane maker who cannot help from saying repeatedly that LV basically pays for the press it receives. While that is an issue which could be debated, my own thinking is it is merely a different business model of development and feedback. My own experience in giving feedback is there are no strings implied or attached. People writing the impressions of a tool are doing so on their own accord.

Anyway, as always, I wish you the best. I enjoy the quality of the body of your work. It speaks well of you.

Take care, Mike

edited because I could not string words together in a coherent manner <g>. No bears were harmed in the production of this message...

 

[sean_in_limerick]

Well gentlemen, some incredibly well considered reponses to my initial question and i thank you all for your time. With all of the responses i decided to check the chipbreaker was making good contact with the blade and it was fitting beautifully, i then checked the back of the blade for flatness - suprisingly - it fell away near the cutting edge and along one side - 2 hours later i had the blade flat and resharpened it using the DC method ( as a novice i purchased the DC's dvd's and i still sit and gawp at the way he manages to get those wafer-thin shavings). Anyway, i flattened the back, sharpened the edge and proceeded to try and plane some red oak - and it cut's very well. However it does not give me full width shavings.
I still have a lot of trouble when i grind, i use a Tormek and cannot get a consistent square edge across the cutting edge. I tried it today after truing the wheel to ensure it was in good condition. I ended up with the two edges protruding ever-so-slightly (but enough) from the centre of the cutting edge - meaning i get very nasty tracks when planing, i have in-effect i suppose managed to have an inverse-curved blade
I assume this is just a question of technique on my part - but there really doesn't seem to be too much to it. I try to apply consistent pressure as i slide the blade (which is wider than the wheel in this case) across the wheel. I keep the blade moving and i have even tried using a marker pen on the grinding angle to see what part of the griding-edge is being cut. Does anybody else have trouble with the Tormek, or advice on how better to use?
As to David Charlesworth plugging his books/dvd's here - well, where better to do it. I find them invaluable and look forward to his next releases - I have no access locally to experts in hand tool use and i am trying to learn as i go (and loving every minute of it) - instructive DVD's - both David's and Rob Cosman's set the bar for me.

Sean

 

[Anonymous]

I still like to flatten all plane blades on an 800grit stone. There is inevitably variation of production and overall flatness across the width is important to ensure good chipbreaker contact, or good seating for bevel up planes.
.

Hi David

I am quite a fan of yours with books and DVDs to show it. Your experience and knowledge of planes is far superior to mine.

However, I do not completely agree that ALL blades need flattening for the simple reason that my 9 LN blades cut beautifully thin shavings without wasting many hours flattening them by hand on a waterstone or whatever.

Possibly it might be better to say that ALL blades need to be checked for flatness before use. Sure, flattening them all might improve the performance of some, but not neccesarily

I ran out CMM (coordinate measuring machine) over one of them at work some time back (same time as the LV Jointer I posted about on forum). The resolution of this is 0.5um and the total error over the entire blade was under 10um. That is less than 0.5 thou out from dead flat. My 6000 grit stone then polished the back of the cutting edge perfectly well using your ruler trick.
OK, I only tested one at random but see no reason why the others should be significantly different.

 

[engineer one]

sean,
as a tormek user i have to agree that plane blade offer one a
great deal of problems. having last week seen to a couple
of blades for my nooigedagt woodies, i found that using the side
of the jig did not guarantee accuracy of sharpening.

looking carefully at the blade, and some others, i have noted that they
seem to have been guillotined to width, certainly not hot forged or
rolled to the width, and since no one ever does anything to the edges,
it is i think difficult to gurantee that when in a jig of any description
LV Mk2 or cheap hilka, stanley or the tormek one, the blade side and
edge will be absolutely square to each other.

so i believe that the blue ink trick is extremely valuable, but there is
also i think the problem in any device that has two screws, you can
overtighten one nut by only a little, and it will f**k the edge.

in my experience, you need to push the plate onto the blade with your
fingers, then tighten the nuts to just grip, then make sure that you
tighten them down properly the same amount each side. i have wondered
about putting a bad of paint on each nut so that you rotate them the same distance each time. the same with the nuts on the support.

the other thing i have found is after grinding, and polishing, and then
removing both wire edges, i can hone a slight extra bevel on the
blade side by lifting it on the hone a little more than the correct angle.
this makes a real difference to the cutting ability.

but of course it is not to easy to produce a radius on the tormek, so
last week i tried my newly tormeked blades in a standard sharpening
jig and on a "oilstone" got quite a nice extra bevel, but not much radius,
but it seemed to cut slightly better, very strange.
now i guess i have to find a wider oilstone :roll: :roll:

not sure about your two grooves, have you properly used the diamond
grader to true up the stone? what surface are you using for final grind,
i only use the finer surface. the other thing i have found is i get a better
edge by pressing the blade down with one finger only,
rather than as you would think, two, one on either side.
my feeling is that one's dominant finger tends to push down more
strongly than the other, thus putting more pressure on one side
than the other. :?

hope this helps.
paul :wink:

 

[Paul Chapman]

I still have a lot of trouble when i grind, i use a Tormek and cannot get a consistent square edge across the cutting edge.

Unless you are dealing with a damaged blade and need to remove a lot of metal from the edge, I would question whether there is a need to use a grinder at all when sharpening blades. It seems to me that they introduce a lot of potential problems in the case of those that don't run in water (that obviously does not apply to the Tormek), and problems such as the ones you have described in general.

I gave up using grinders years ago and simply use a coarse sharpening stone fairly regularly to stop the secondary bevel getting too long. I find this very quick and it prevents the sort of problems you describe.

Paul

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

The quote you have highlighted was considered, and although unwise, is still relevant to the ongoing discussion. It was partially an attempt to explain the response Derek got from some of the angrier posters. the other part is a serious question about internet "reviews".

(references here are made to unfortunate headings to some posts and the concerns about posting reviews in the forum(s))

Hi David

I would like to amplify some of Mike's comments in a effort to clarify what has been occuring on some forums, notably Wood Central.

It is evident that there are a (small) minority of forum members there that are very vocal in expressing their opinions and indignation at what - they perceive - to be injustice. In this case, the injustice of a known toolmaker imparting gifts to procure favourable advertising, and the perceived slander of a favoured toolmaker, who is now the underdog.

As I mentioned earlier on in this thread, I wish I had not raised the name of LN in my heading. If I had withheld the maker's name and had just described the problem, perhaps more members (more so at WC than here) might have responded intellectually and not emotionally. But this does emphasize the side-taking that occurs.

For reasonable forum members, those that take the time to read everything carefully, not jump to conclusions, and do not actually begin with an axe to grind, there is no vitiol just frank discussion. After that the thread on the Marcou smoother I received dozens of emails from concerned members who felt distressed at the personal attacks on myself, and who distanced themselves from the anger of the participants. By-and-large, both on WC and other forums (e.g. Ubeaut, Wood Net, Sawmill Creek, Oldtools forum, and here), the feedback on the review has been very favourable. Even on Knots, the FWW forum, after a similarly aggressive set of posts (from essentially the same people from WC), the tide turned and reasonable people rejected the ravings of the dissenters as paranoid nonsense.

This is an interesting read: http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=30307.1

The point made by Mike - and I am sure that Alf will confirm - is that LV (i.e Rob Lee) does NOT give away planes to be reviewed. I have never written a review for him or LV. The planes and accessories I have received have been for feedback at a pre-production stage. They are all pre-production models that function perfectly but have casting blemishes. They cannot be sold, would otherwise be scrapped, and are worth less to LV than the cost of postage (which is why we get to keep them). All reviews involving planes I earlier received from LV were either written because I chose to do so (partly to disseminate information, partly because I enjoy the creative process involved, and partly because it is a nice gloat!). In the case of Philip's plane, he contacted me with a request to write a review, and our agreement was that he would have to accept what I wrote (which Philip did). He will confirm this.

I say the above, not with the intention of trying to convince you (or others) that there was no impropriety, but to clarify that the association between parties is one thing, and that recognision of the ability to deal with bias is another. There will always be a minority who are not prepared to evaluate the latter fairly. Fortunately, the greater majority are able to do so, and it is to this group that I write. Your own writings will be treated in the same way, with the respect that you have earned, and certainly from my side you have earned plenty. I am not alone here in this opinion.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Alf]

Before we go any further along this road at all, can we all remember how much we don't want this to go the way of WoodCentral or Knots? With that in mind I'm reluctant to post at all, but I'm a little bit fed up with holding my tongue and if I can't post about it here then where can I?

David, I have to say I read your post shortly after you posted it with some dismay. Having urged judging a post by tone I found I was reduced to judging it on one word - manipulate is a verb seldom used in a positive context, so I can only assume you view using the internet to publicise products as a Bad Thing? This is surprising, given the three DVDs you've sent expressly with the intention of my reviewing them on this forum. As it happens this is considerably further than "a particular manufacturer" has ever gone. Now <i>I'm</i> not judging you on it or condemning you for it because I believe letting potential customers know as much as possible about a product as early as possible is a real advantage of the internet over magazines and is thus a Good Thing, but apparently by your own comments you believe you've done a Bad Thing?

The self-appointed defenders of the LN name immediately make me think of The Bard. Viz; The gentlemen doth protest too much, methinks . The irony is that LN has an excellent reputation that doesn't need hourly defence; by so doing, if I didn't know better, I'd be inclined to wonder "hey up, is that reputation really that fragile? Why? What's wrong with them?". What a ridiculous situation! And LN is in danger of being inextricably linked to the nastier participants of internet forums, which is definitely a Bad Thing. It's a matter of fact that LN occasionally have faulty goods. It's also a matter of fact that Veritas occasionally have faulty goods. This is the real world, stuff happens, SNAFU is not a familiar acronym for nothing. The key thing is how they make it right, which we all know they both do time and time again, often above and beyond the call.

Derek has asked I confirm the policy of LV with regard to review items. I'll do my best going on my experience and what I'm given to understand. There's nothing written down officially, my soul hasn't been signed over or anything like that, so I can't quote from any small print. Some things I've had very much pre-production for my private comments to Veritas R&D; not only am I asked to keep it confidential but it's not a finished product so a review of it would be pointless. Some things have been pre-production/early models for comments, initially privately but subsequently I've gone public if the model hasn't changed once the tool hits the market. Production models have sometimes been slight casting seconds and sometimes not. As far as I'm concerned they're the ones I want to review, 'cos you get the whole package, instructions, the works, as they come off the shelf, and can give a proper breakdown of what a potential buyer would be getting for their lettuce. If they're only sent at all for feedback, you might ask what's the point of sending anything already in production? LV apparently have no qualms about changing things at a very late stage or going to a "type 2" if necessary, so comments are still apparently pertinent even when ostensibly the product is in production. Naturally I don't suppose LV actually overlook the advantage of a review online either, 'cos they ain't stoopid, but reviewing it is not a condition subject to receiving the tool. Disposal of tools is subject to my discretion; by the time you factor in shipping costs and duty it simply isn't worth it to LV to have them back again. So I can keep 'em, donate them to a worthy cause, use 'em for a competition prize, whatever. So yes, I could pass them all on and be whiter, yea whiter than snow. However I have a stubborn streak that ain't going to for a number of reasons. Firstly, because I like them and don't want to. Secondly, I reckon I earn them a few times over. Thirdly, I resent the idea that I can apparently write an unbiased review if I've bought the tool myself but not if I get to keep a tool I've had to spend a week or so analysing and trying to make sensible comments about. It's total balls and I'm just not pandering to it.

Should any tool manufacturer at all want to use me for similar feedback, they're welcome, even Larry despite his appalling attitude. All I ask is they at least pay the shipping costs and any duty - that's it. As it happens TLN already has, but I'm not allowed to say so I couldn't shill for them even if I wanted to. Fundamentally I like tools, I'm interested in them and the different ways they go about doing their job. The more I see, the more I get to learn. I'd love to have the income to buy them all myself, but I simply can't, so doing this gives me opportunities I wouldn't otherwise have. The only downside comes if I take the trouble to share some of that information publicly, when I have the pleasure of being considered a shill and an (underpaid) advertising lackey. Frankly, if you were in my shoes, why would you bother any more? Answers on a postcard...

Cheers, Alf

 

[engineer one]

bravely stated alf.

its only bloody tools for **** sake. they make our lives easier,

it is not life or death.

we are all entitled to criticise, work, tools and people we know,
if they fall below the standard we have come to expect, but
gratuitous comments, or stupid ones which claim that all
is perfect in the world will not get us continually improved
tools.

like many i feel that once it gets this personal we should all
take a step back, and review our own navels, before jumping in
to the pool which has gone from a "i had this problem what should i
do?" to you "cannot complain at the feet of the great god."

DC we all have great respect for you , but most people study your
work, then wonder how they can approach 10 per cent of what you
do to get their own standards to lift, and enjoy what they do more.

derek, i think you have asked a question that few were prepared
to ask, and you still got the right answer from TLN.

all the partisan comments do not help the process along,
and will stop sensible comments from people who buy and
use the products being posted.

if it cuts the b****y wood then it does its job, everything else
is refinement, and how many of us can actually go the extra thou???????

and now the engineer closes down for a breather :lol:

paul :wink:

 

[Ian Dalziel]

wouldnt pm's be a better way of airing some things between people, the last few replies seem to have been directed at one person in particular.......I dont want to see people disappearing from this forum because every word they say gets scrutinised, picked out then quoted....some people are far better than others at writing, putting their words down in emails without them being mis read or mis interpreted.


lets try and focus on helping sean in limerick with his blade flattening and sharpening.

Ian

 

[sean_in_limerick]

has anybody else given up grinding? I would consider this as i really do have problems when i come to grinding the irons (and chisels for that matter!) - i thought my troubles were over really when i opted for the Tormek - i did a lot of research to see what people thought of it and reports were generally positive - perhaps as i get more experience i will get better results - thanks everyone for the comments - i must get back to designing my kitchen (and i have a great thread going on that)

 

[Anonymous]

Mod note:

Please can we take any more discussion of the whys and wherefores of 'online reviewing' away from the public forum before it becomes too personal.

Thanks

Tony

 

[Alf]

has anybody else given up grinding?

Nope, but that's because I favour honing a hollow grind. But then I don't use a Tormek so I'm probably no help anyway.

Cheers, Alf

 

[sean_in_limerick]

Hi Alf - you favour a hollow grind! May i ask why - i fail to see the benefit.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Alf - you favour a hollow grind! May i ask why - i fail to see the benefit.

Many favour this as it makes honing a primary bevel much quicker and easier and more honing operations can be carried out before a re-grind is required for much longer, thus less grinds per year

I have tried it on one of my blades and the benefit is real. Will probably do it to the others when they need grinding

 

[Alf]

It's quicker and easier - plus I find it makes freehand honing simpler too. Looking at it another way, why wouldn't you do it? :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Paul Chapman]

It's quicker and easier - plus I find it makes freehand honing simpler too. Looking at it another way, why wouldn't you do it? :wink:

Cheers, Alf

I agree with everything you say, Alf. However, Sean is having problems achieving a square edge.

When I used to grind my blades I found there were two problems. The first was the potential for overheating and ruining the blade (I didn't have a wet grinder). The second was the problem Sean is having in consistently achieving a square edge, despite using a good guide. I asked myself "Why grind at all if the blade edge is not damaged" and concluded that there was little benefit but several potential problems.

What I now do is use a primary bevel of 25 degrees most of the time and a secondary bevel of 30 degrees. Every half dozen or so honings, I run the primary bevel over a coarse diamond stone and I find that prevents the secondary bevel ever getting too long. I use an Eclipse honing guide most of the time and a Veritas mark one when the Eclipse is unsuitable, and find the whole operation very quick and problem-free. I certainly no longer get any problems with un-square edges.

Hope this is of some help :wink:

Paul

 

[sean_in_limerick]

i also find that getting a consistent 25' primary bevel is no easy task on the Tormek - i know that the actual angle doesn't really matter but i have found that it's difficult to setup accurately even with the angle setting guide that Tormek supply. What grit do you consider a 'course' stone Paul?

Sean

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Sean,

My honing regime is now as follows:

DMT polka dot stones in coarse (blue), fine (red) and extra fine (green). I use the 8 inch stones and use them with WD40 (can't stand water).

I use the blue coarse stone only for initial flattening of backs and for maintaining the primary bevel. I use the red fine and green extra fine for honing then finish off on a leather strop with polishing compound. The leather strop and polishing compound is important because the extra fine diamond stone does not give a sufficiently polished finish to the blade.

Hope this is of help although there is a danger now of kicking off a whole new debate :roll: :wink:

Paul

 

[engineer one]

sean,
lets see how i can make this better from wembley to limerick.

i bought my tormek with two specific stone accessories,
the grader, and the diamond device for bringing the stone back to
round etc.
the grader is two surfaces a coarse and a smooth.
it is a block which you move across the surface whilst it the wheel is
rotating.

next have you got the support bar, and the aluminium blade holder
designed for planes and chisels, plus the angle jig???

assuming you have all three, drop the bar into the two piece holder
on the top of the stone, with the overhang over the side where the wheel is. next set up the plastic jig so that the wheel size is what you can read off on the scale on the machine, but lets say 260, that is the black plastic dodad which is at the left hand end of the plastic jig, now move the other one to 25degrees. that is the one with the flat foot.

slip the blade into the holder with about 40 mm of metal sticking out,
make sure that of the two holders that go on the bar, the inset one is
on the left, and the blade is sticking out almost above this.

slide this on to the bar, and then set the jig so it touches the wheel with the round black foot, and the flat foot is on the back of your blade, which should be polished. move the nuts up or down until the two feet are
flat, one on the wheel, the other on the blade. this should be 25 degrees
give or take. now lift it up, and use the marker, then run the wheel by hand
and see where it touches, adjust the blade in the holder to get it square,
then check that the blade is at the right angle, then grind.

thinking about it, i wonder whether your grooves are due to the
stone not having been re-shaped by the diamond cutter.

does this make it any clearer sean, if not pm me
and we'll see how we can get better.

paul :wink: