Fire Doors

[BradNaylor]

With my new house extension now plastered, I can finally turn my thoughts to the internal joinery.

I have fitted oak door casings to the kitchen and study, and my plan was to make glazed doors from 2" oak in order to let light flow through the house. It has been pointed out to me however, that as my next project will be a loft conversion I will need to fit fire doors throughout.

This is the kind of thing I'm after.

http://www.doorwarehouse.co.uk/doors-in ... glazed.php

Then I looked at the price. £900 each !!! :shock:

So - what to do?

Is there any way to make internal doors that meet 30 minute fire resistance specifications without paying hundreds of quid to send a door to some lab so that they can burn it to a cinder and give me a chitty?

Or does anyone know of a cheaper supplier?

Suggestions please...

 

[Russ]

I'm sure there's someone on here that knows the full regs... but I used flame retardant varnish on something similar and it was accepted by all involved, but that was in France...

Hopefully, glass panels should do the same job as fire resistant panels..

Here's the link - http://www.thermoguarduk.com/

Russ

 

[RogerS]

Isn't a lot to do with the extra thickness (??) at 44mm and the intumescent seal around the door periphery? Not sure how the glass affects things or what spec is needed.

This link looks promising

http://www.simplifydiy.com/windows-and- ... fire-doors

 

[OPJ]

Don't forget the hinges, either - they're just as important as the door itself. Otherwise, if they failed in the event of a fire, your door might fall out of the frame and would then offer no resistance! :shock:

 

[Oryxdesign]

Is that glass in the panels? That makes it a bit more complicated but you can buy 1/2 hour blanks from edens. All they are is a thick bit of chipboard, you just lip the edges and veneer the faces and you have a fire door.

 

[petermillard]

AFAIK glass in fire doors has to be in an intumescent channel and held in place by beads fitted with non-combustible covers - though it's been a while since I did any of this, so don't take my word on it... How keen are your building inspectors in Cheshire? When I had my loft done all our ancient Victorian 4-panel doors were passed as long as they had closers fitted, but maybe they've tightened up a bit since then.

Not a true solution of course, but there's always the old trick of fitting FD30 blanks for the inspection, then putting the real doors back - or so I've been told :roll:

Cheers, Pete.

 

[Dibs-h]

Not a true solution of course, but there's always the old trick of fitting FD30 blanks for the inspection, then putting the real doors back - or so I've been told :roll:

Cheers, Pete.

Not to mention removing the closers. :wink:

 

[dexter]

Check out the regs Duncan, the G/F`s neighbours have just had their loft converted and had all the doors that open onto the landing and hallway changed to fire doors. This meant routing out the frames to accept 44mm doors. Daft thing is though, no closers or springs required. I thought this odd because what is the use of a fire door if its not shut but guidance is that the builder should advise the customer to keep the doors closed when the room is vacant!
I`ve got half a dozen to fit up here in Lancs next week and as far as I know it`s the same situation here.

Dex

 

[Shadowfax]

Talk to Building Control, Duncan, to see what they will accept.

The fact is, unless you buy ready-made doors (and frames) as a set that have been accredited as fire resisting then whatever you do will not meet the British Standard.
Closers are not required any longer for domestic situations. That is totally stupid but that is what the Regulations now say.

I reckon if you tell BC that you intend to make oak doors and frames that have the correct glass and also have intumescent strips and seals as required they are quite likely to accept them, especially given what you do for a living.

If I am asked this kind of question by the BC that employ me I almost always advise that the relevant standard will be met, if not exceeded, as long as the right components are used, including the hinges, strips and seals etc. I usually advise that closers are required as well.
Hope this helps.

SF

 

[BradNaylor]

Not a true solution of course, but there's always the old trick of fitting FD30 blanks for the inspection, then putting the real doors back - or so I've been told :roll:

I smell a business oppportunity there - renting out fire doors for the BC inspection then collecting them afterwards.

:lol:

Note to Doctor before he mounts his high horse: I AM JOKING!

 

[BradNaylor]

Talk to Building Control, Duncan, to see what they will accept.

The fact is, unless you buy ready-made doors (and frames) as a set that have been accredited as fire resisting then whatever you do will not meet the British Standard.
Closers are not required any longer for domestic situations. That is totally stupid but that is what the Regulations now say.

I reckon if you tell BC that you intend to make oak doors and frames that have the correct glass and also have intumescent strips and seals as required they are quite likely to accept them, especially given what you do for a living.

If I am asked this kind of question by the BC that employ me I almost always advise that the relevant standard will be met, if not exceeded, as long as the right components are used, including the hinges, strips and seals etc. I usually advise that closers are required as well.
Hope this helps.

SF

Thanks for that. I'll speak to Building Control on Tuesday.

 

[9fingers]

Brad,

I don't know if you have looked at closers for your fire doors. The normal ones are a bit ugly for home use but you can get some that fit into the jamb that are much neater.

Perko is one make. If it is your intention to remove the closers after inspection, then they make a cheap range but they also make nicely controlled hydraulic ones with similar action to the industrial type ones.

HTH

Bob

 

[Mattty]

Brad,

I don't know if you have looked at closers for your fire doors. The normal ones are a bit ugly for home use but you can get some that fit into the jamb that are much neater.

Perko is one make. If it is your intention to remove the closers after inspection, then they make a cheap range but they also make nicely controlled hydraulic ones with similar action to the industrial type ones.

HTH

Bob

Bob- Closers are no longer required in domestic use under BR.

As others have said Brad, i'd speak to your BCO and tell him what you want to do showing him pics and what casings, IM strips, glass etc that you will use and ask him if this will be acceptable.

Get this in writing though or at the very least get him to sign a sheet with your spec on it.
I have had a BCO agree one thing then a different inspector knock it when he's covering for the original inspector who has gone off sick.

That door style looks like it will date quickly to me I'm sure you could come up with something much nicer.

The other option is starting with a veneered FD blank and doing glazing cut outs in a style you like. The advantage being that you start with an approved door. This style tends to be more suited to shop fitting, though it can look good in a modern home.
Good info on regs inc glass and cut outs here-
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/efd/maintenance/fi ... TN_065.pdf

 

[9fingers]

Brad,

I don't know if you have looked at closers for your fire doors. The normal ones are a bit ugly for home use but you can get some that fit into the jamb that are much neater.

Perko is one make. If it is your intention to remove the closers after inspection, then they make a cheap range but they also make nicely controlled hydraulic ones with similar action to the industrial type ones.

HTH

Bob

Bob- Closers are no longer required in domestic use under BR.

My last brush with fire doors was in 1982!
I can't quite see what they hope to achieve by asking for fire doors in certain circumstances and then not insisting on closers :?:

Still like so much in later BR - I'm sure they know what they are doing :wink:

Bob

 

[Mattty]

Brad,

I don't know if you have looked at closers for your fire doors. The normal ones are a bit ugly for home use but you can get some that fit into the jamb that are much neater.

Perko is one make. If it is your intention to remove the closers after inspection, then they make a cheap range but they also make nicely controlled hydraulic ones with similar action to the industrial type ones.

HTH

Bob

Bob- Closers are no longer required in domestic use under BR.

My last brush with fire doors was in 1982!
I can't quite see what they hope to achieve by asking for fire doors in certain circumstances and then not insisting on closers :?:

Still like so much in later BR - I'm sure they know what they are doing :wink:

Bob

The omission of closers was quite a recent reg change- due (so my bco told me) to the fact that as soon as a house was signed off the householders either removed them, or worse propped doors open. Which meant that doors that would normally be closed anyway where left open and thus increased the risk.

The BC regs do seem odd at times, generally though the BCO's are great and always have time to discuss issues and solutions. Planners on the other hand...grrrr

 

[head clansman]

hi brad

your link http://www.doorwarehouse.co.uk/doors-in ... glazed.php

says

Internal fire doors are often specified in new builds, third floors and above,

your extension is ground floor yes , surely the fire doors only apply to third floor or above ? please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong , i have no knowledge of fire doors. hc

 

[BradNaylor]

Apparantly if you convert your loft, Building Regs make you fit a 30 minute fire door to every room in the house that opens onto the landing or hallway, with the exception of bathroms. This is to ensure a clear means of escape from the loft to the front door.

Until recently all these fire doors had to have closers fitted as stated above.

 

[Paul Chapman]

The omission of closers was quite a recent reg change- due (so my bco told me) to the fact that as soon as a house was signed off the householders either removed them, or worse propped doors open. Which meant that doors that would normally be closed anyway where left open and thus increased the risk.

Quite correct. We had a loft conversion in our previous house, so had to have door closers. If you have small children and/or pets, door closers are impossible to live with - nearly decapitated our cat a couple of times :shock: Like everyone else, we removed ours the day after the inspector left.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Shadowfax]

Just to keep things in perspective - the only way a fire-resisting door can work is when it is closed...........period!
If the door is part of the protection to an escape route I can see no way that there should ever be a reason to remove the closer (or not fit it in the first place) regardless of what the Regulations state. This is just common sense, or physics, if you like.

Perko closers, in whatever guise - single or double barrel - are nothing more than door slammers in my opinion. They are forever in need of adjustment and are really ony suitable for lightweight doors. On the other hand a good quality hydraulic closer (Briton or Dorma for instance) will not need constant adjustment and can be set to close slowly but securely. Nothing based on a spring will ever be this accurate. An underfloor closer looks better because it is out of sight but will be more expensive.

The ultimate door closer is, however, a free-swing closer that only operates if the fire alarm tells it to operate. The rest of the time the door is just like any other door and swings freely. It can be left open or not as the occupant thinks fit.

The stuff is all out there. It's just a case of making things fit the budget, as always.

HTH

Cheers,

SF

 

[SPinonit]

Putting temporary doors on to fool the inspectors, then putting standard doors on when they've left..........

Same story with door closers..........

Gents, no offence meant and I hope none will be taken. I really do not want to sound pompous or condescending, but if you had ever had to see [close up] the aftermath of a house fire, you would stop kidding yourselves and put up with the requirements of the building regs. Period.

So you want a loft conversion, then you need to put up with the regs. They are there for a reason. I went to a few fires that originated in loft conversions. By and large, the houses were wrecked far beyond kitchen fires etc. Plus, if you are asleep in the converted loft, you are that much further away from the safety of your front door. The regs are to prevent fire spread both ways ie from within the loft conversion spreading to the rst of the house, but also to create a place of relative safety should you be unlucky enough to be stuck up there if the lower floors catch fire.

If you've ever seen the results of fire versus human, it don't take much to know that aint pretty either. Fire takes no prisoners and does not give you second chances. You're playing with fire and it doesn't play fair (how many idioms can you write about this,,,).

Others on here may be able to offer their advice and benefit of their experience. If you like, I can have a chat with some of the best fire engineers in the British Fire Service, who may be able to tell you the best or most acceptable way to achieve what you want? I'm more than happy to request that advice. PM me if interested.

Sorry, you can take the boy out of firefighting, but you can't take firefighting out of the boy. :twisted: