Festool Domino XL for external doors?

[Doug71]

Hi,

Does anybody use the Festool Domino XL for making external doors?

I have used the domino on some internal doors and it worked fine, just not sure externally?

I have a front door to make for someone and was thinking of using the Domino to speed things up. The door is only small, under 6' high and will be made of Accoya so no problem with movement.

Normally I use mortise and tenons just thought might try Domino for this one.

Any thoughts or experiences (or failures)?

Thanks, Doug

 

[ColeyS1]

My thoughts would be, if a jobs worth doing its worth doing properly.
If I had the choice for someone to make me a front door using traditional wedged mortice and tenons or loose tenons I know which I'd choose !!
It won't be much of time saver if you have to remake it your decision though

Coley

 

[Adam9453]

Its an interesting question this and has been touched on many times.
I've got an external door/gate to make and plan to use my domino for it but as its only for me i'm not concerned if it doesn't work out.
I'd be interested to hear how you get on and will be happy to advise you how I get on.
I guess one of the issues with doors is that you really need a long term test to see if they fail in a number of years.
I have wondered about pegging into the dominos to give more mechanical strength and I may even try both on my door/gate to see how both hold up.
Could certainly be food for thought

 

[Claud1]

I have used the small Domino since it first came out and also the XL on outside doors and other outdoor projects and never had a problem I would not hesitate just use a waterproof glue. and by the way I stay in a area that is not the best for a consistant climate

 

[Woodmonkey]

I would say that is exactly the kind of application it was invented for.

 

[custard]

I have used the small Domino since it first came out and also the XL on outside doors and other outdoor projects and never had a problem

But in the life of a building that's just the blink of an eye. If you can say the same thing in the year 2116 then I promise I'll take that argument seriously!

 

[Wizard9999]

OK, taking a risk and putting my head up above the parapet

What is the concern, is it that the largest domino loose tenon will be undersized and therefore there will be structural issues? If so, could you not use two dominos?

Terry.

 

[ED65]

I can't see why this wouldn't be just as good externally as internally, it's not like the joint's surfaces allow for any more water ingress than a mortise & tenon joint, slightly less in fact!

You need to use a waterproof glue all the same of course.

 

[ColeyS1]

Which is stronger ? A wedged mortice and tenon or a loose domino- i mean if the glue fails

Coley

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I don't think there is a cogent argument for any structural problems as long as you use enough domino's to provide the mechanical strength, they are after all, strong pieces of hardwood that are connecting both sides of the joint in very nearly the same way as a normal tenon is.

The big issue to me is the longevity of the glue in an external setting. It's generally considered the strength of a glue joint is frequently stronger than the actual wood and we've seen that proven in countless tests (Matthias Wandel et al). But that's not outside in temperatures ranging down to -15 on occasion (winter 2010) and with plenty of damp to boot.

My gut feel is they will work provided the glue used is fit for marine systems. I would be looking for an epoxy that gets used in boat building and I would be very careful about the size and placement of my domino's. I would also be tempted to dowel them through the sides for belt and braces. The stresses on doors due to the movement and banging etc does mean the joint is subject to more stress than many.

 

[custard]

It's not just the Domino Terry (or at least it's less the Domino if a Sipo Domino is used rather than a standard rot prone Beech Domino), there's also the glue. Exterior joinery based on pegged M&T's or through wedged M&T's have a mechanical component so don't rely purely on glue for integrity.

Maybe it'll work just fine, I'd accept for example that the individual Domino tenons are quite narrow unlike the whopping wide tenons in traditional door joinery, so the problem of long grain surfaces that are at 90 degrees to each other is correspondingly reduced. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying it's unproven when there are alternatives that are proven. All glue joints fail eventually, but at the moment none of us really know when a Domino glue joint used in external joinery will fail.

 

[AJB Temple]

1 How much time is saved by using Domino versus M&T?
2How much risk to your reputation is there if the Domino fails for your customer?
How much will it cost you to stand behind your guarantee if a joint fails v cost of time saved?

 

[AJB Temple]

1 How much time is saved by using Domino versus M&T?
2 How much risk to your reputation is there if the Domino fails for your customer?
3 How much will it cost you to stand behind your guarantee if a joint fails v cost of time saved?

If cost of 3 is materially more than saving 1, don't use Domino. No one else in this thread has any skin in the game and this seems to be a pure commercial risk assessment.

 

[murdoch]

We've made lots of external doors using accoya and xl dominos. Really quick and makes a very strong door. We make our own domino's using accoya and glue using west systems epoxy. We will use about 3 domino's in the head and 5 in the mid and bottom rail. Crazily strong as the dominoes are such a tight fit.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

With two (or more) 14mm dominoes per joint, I cants see much disadvantage compared to a blind mortise and tenon, however the best doors are made with through wedged tenons to give a mechanical join in addition to the glue. I have made a few external doors and have always done them like that because "that's how it's done", however it has always bothered me a little as the through tenon leaves exposed end grain which will be more likely to suck up moisture if the finish fails. I suppose the best joint would be fox tenons (blind wedged tenons) but personally I wouldn't dare as they can only be assembled once.
So in short I think it would be fine but still wouldn't do it.
What I would do is use the domino to make the through mortise, plunging from both sides and moving along to make it wide enough then square the ends of the motise with a chisel while slightly tapering the mortise for the wedged tenon. Then set a gauge from the position of the mortise to mark your tenons, this is the one disadvantage of using the domino for mortising, it is very hard to set it to dead centre and impossible to set it to gauge line. It is much easier to set the gauge to mark out the tenons from the position of the mortise. Where possible I use one of the preset depth stops (so it's repeatable in case I mess up). I'd cut the tenon by hand but there are plenty of machine methods.
Paddy

 

[ColeyS1]

Whenever I use a wedged mortice and tenon, I always compare it to leaving the clamps on. That's a nice feeling to have and more than makes it worth the extra effort....That's even if it does take any extra effort.

Coley

 

[custard]

Whenever I use a wedged mortice and tenon, I always compare it to leaving the clamps on.

Superbly put!

=D>

 

[ColeyS1]

With two (or more) 14mm dominoes per joint, I cants see much disadvantage compared to a blind mortise and tenon, however the best doors are made with through wedged tenons to give a mechanical join in addition to the glue. I have made a few external doors and have always done them like that because "that's how it's done", however it has always bothered me a little as the through tenon leaves exposed end grain which will be more likely to suck up moisture if the finish fails. I suppose the best joint would be fox tenons (blind wedged tenons) but personally I wouldn't dare as they can only be assembled once.
So in short I think it would be fine but still wouldn't do it.
What I would do is use the domino to make the through mortise, plunging from both sides and moving along to make it wide enough then square the ends of the motise with a chisel while slightly tapering the mortise for the wedged tenon. Then set a gauge from the position of the mortise to mark your tenons, this is the one disadvantage of using the domino for mortising, it is very hard to set it to dead centre and impossible to set it to gauge line. It is much easier to set the gauge to mark out the tenons from the position of the mortise. Where possible I use one of the preset depth stops (so it's repeatable in case I mess up). I'd cut the tenon by hand but there are plenty of machine methods.
Paddy

Just the thought of fox tenons makes me feel nervous !
When I was a kid I remember watching an episode of columbo where it appeared someone had comitted suicide by hanging. Only thing was, there was no explanation how he could have reached the rope, as the rope was out of reach and nothing nearby. To cut a long story short he stood on a block of ice then jumped.
It'd be quite nifty if there was an ice like product you could use to make the wedges. Until then I don't think I'd have the balls to try it

Coley

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

I heard a story about someone ripping off vending machines with coins made from ice, leaving no evidence apart from a damp patch. Don't know if it's really true

 

[ColeyS1]

I heard a story about someone ripping off vending machines with coins made from ice, leaving no evidence apart from a damp patch. Don't know if it's really true

That blows my mind !!!! I reckon some silicone as a mould might do the trick. That's amazing

Coley