Equiping a workshop

[Chems]

I often use my table saw as an extra work surface, and when ever I do I curse the fact that I can't get on it. Once you get a table saw and like it it becomes a very valuable tool. I'd just like a bigger one and quieter.

 

[Night Train]

I often use my table saw as an extra work surface, and when ever I do I curse the fact that I can't get on it. Once you get a table saw and like it it becomes a very valuable tool. I'd just like a bigger one and quieter.

I know what you mean. I sometimes use my planer table to stack work in immediate progress. Those 60x12 inches of cast iron is very tempting as a shelf.

 

[Chems]

Any surface is game in my book!

 

[frugal]

Any surface is game in my book!

You sound like SWMBO when she is tidying indoors. She thinks that the floor is just another flat surface to be used for storage

 

[crazylilting]

I take a bit of offence to this comment:

Sorry, but for an amateur (and the OP gives no indication that he is trade) that is complete twaddle. Nice to have, maybe, but certainly not imperative.

I didn't ask for your opinion on my statement i only gave my opinion which is all it is, not some gospel truth or the end all be all.

Most people spend a lot of time trying to replicate what a table saw does with many steps and faffing about trying to square things up after the fact. I've been in that position before and would never be in that position again. Table saws are not that expensive and can be incorporated into a smaller workshop if you place them near an opening door.

I have never worked in a cabinet shop without one for good reason. They are a highly valued work horse.

 

[MikeG.]

I didn't ask for your opinion on my statement i only gave my opinion which is all it is, not some gospel truth or the end all be all.

The mere fact of posting your views on an open forum means you are asking for a response. I think your oversight was only to state your view without the caveat "in my opinion" or "I reckon" or something similar. Almost everything you say on here will attract a lot of agreement, and a lot of complete disagreement. There are only one or two people who set out to look for an argument, but generally you'll find that there are only friendly and subtle differences of view.

For what it's worth, I'll repeat that a bandsaw, a radial arm saw or SCM saw, a hand-held circular saw with guide, and crucially, a router table, mean that a table saw isn't critical. We would all treat one as a bonus, I'm sure, but I value the floorspace too much.

I'd also point out that Thomas Chippendale managed without one perfectly well........

Mike

 

[woodbloke]

I'd also point out that Thomas Chippendale managed without one perfectly well........

Mike

...and that Mike, in my opinion, is also twaddle! Do you think that he'd have turned down a nice juicy Wadkin or Altendorf with a sliding table if one was offered to him, or indeed the technology was availbale? I think not - Rob

 

[crazylilting]

I'd also point out that Thomas Chippendale managed without one perfectly well........

Well lets put that in context of time shall we? In the 1700's that average yearly wage was half of what a good craftsman makes in one hour now days. And the cost of their tools was also equal to that as well. But for the time they bought very specialized tools to help them with that job. Much like today in fact.

If you don't use a table saw fine, its not up to me to convince you that you should get one. However the OP was asking about table saws indicating he sees the value in one already. To say that an accomplished craftsman doesn't need one is just an opinion. But the time saved by having one can be better put to use on the finer details of the project.

I suppose if all the op wants to make is £15's a year like they did in the Chippendale era then a table saw wouldn't be on his list of things to get. If there were such tools in the Chippendale era i would bet that Thomas would of had one.

There are many tools they didn't have in those days, and while it is true that the hallmark of a good trades man is what he can produce with the simplest tools it doesn't mean he is limited to such thinking. money and space will determine what one can have in a shop now days not what someone thinks makes a good craftsman.

 

[MickCheese]

Sorry to highjack your thread but as it is turning into an argument I wont feel too guilty.

Woodbloke

How effective is the dust extractor on your Kity PT?

I am collecting an extractor on Tuesday and hope to use it with mine as it produces shavings by the dustbin full and up to now no proper extractor. How did you get over the oval to round connection on the Kity? Is the pipe from your extractor 4"or 5"?

Sorry, you can have your thread back now.

Regards

Mick

 

[woodbloke]

Sorry to highjack your thread but as it is turning into an argument I wont feel too guilty.

Woodbloke

How effective is the dust extractor on your Kity PT?

Mick

Mick - it's the nature of the forum... all well intentioned though :lol:
The extractor as you can see is a blue version of the cheapie on currently available at Axminster. It will collect most of the chippings (say 95%) but there's always a little bit to sweep up later. It won't however collect the fine dust so I wouldn't recommend it now. Try and go for one that will filter out the smallest particles...plenty on the market to choose from nowadays - Rob

 

[MikeG.]

I'd also point out that Thomas Chippendale managed without one perfectly well........

Mike

...and that Mike, in my opinion, is also twaddle! Do you think that he'd have turned down a nice juicy Wadkin or Altendorf with a sliding table if one was offered to him, or indeed the technology was availbale? I think not - Rob

Oh, I completely agree, Rob. My point was just that it was stated that a table saw is an imperative.........ie, you can't manage without one. All I am saying is that you can manage perfectly well without one. Some of the best furniture ever made was made without one. A table saw is a matter of choice, not an imperative.

Had I the space, I would have one. I don't.

I rather hoped that I had gently pointed out to crazylilting that there are at least 2 schools of thought on this matter......that there is no right and wrong, and that posting a forthright opinion on here can sometimes draw forthright responses. Goodness knows what the wages of Chippendale's workers has to do with anything.....there has actually been just a little bit of inflation since then.

Ho hum.......I'm really not interested in an argument over this, and I care even less about getting the last word in.....so, its over to the rest of you guys.....

Mike

 

[woodbloke]

The problem with the c/s that we as hobbyist's use is one of accuracy, as the tools in real terms don't cost a lot. We use the c/s to do a bit of ripping or cross cutting, take off the guarding (never, ever done in a pro 'shop btw) and use it to saw tenons etc etc. However, if you look at the c/s that a pro maker would use, an Altendorf, Knapp or Felder say, these machines cost thousands :shock: and are capable of incredible accuracy which is repeatable on a daily basis. For example, Robert Ingham's Felder is capable of cutting to .1mm (and I have that on good authority from someone who's been to his 'shop) which is the sort of tolerance that he works to straight off the saw. Altendorf's have a digital readout so that the blade can be set vertical to the minutest part of a degree. When I was in the trade some years ago, my firm took delivery of a huge panel saw and as a test, Dicky the boss got hold of a piece of 100mm square oak and made a deep knife line cut all the way round. Once the machine had been set up, the saw blade then split the knife line...all the way round!! In the hands of a pro who knows exactly what these things can do, they are simply the most important piece of machinery, above all else in the 'shop. Such was the accuracy of the saw, that when I wanted to rip down a mundane bit of stuff for a job, I was told in no uncertain terms to 'foxtrot oscar' and use some other bit of kit to do the job.
So is the hobbyist saw needed? Within the limits of it's accuracy it's still a very useful bit of kit to have in the 'shop, provided you know it's limitations and don't expect it to cut day in, day out to a tenth of a mm :wink: - Rob

 

[Escudo]

Interesting thread.

I don't have a table saw in my small workshop. If I had room I suppose I could get one but, I am just not sure what I would use it for?

If I need some sheet material I have in the past arranged for this to be cut to size by the supplier. I can also cut manageable pieces using my big bandsaw.

A bandsaw seems far more versatile for a small workshop and has a smaller footprint.

I wonder what members use their tablesaws for other than cutting sheet material?

Mike I like your shop layout, very good indeed and Rob your pictures seem to show that you have a fair amount of room in your place. My bugbear at the moment is one, I have to keep moving stuff around all the time to do anything and two, I have no where to assemble or carefully store work in progress.

I just can't take on a decent sized project unless I decamp to my study in the house for assembly/storage. Looking round now I have half my tools in here as well.

Oh for a bigger workshop..... :roll:

Cheers, Tony.

 

[woodbloke]

Rob your pictures seem to show that you have a fair amount of room in your place.

Oh for a bigger workshop..... :roll:

Cheers, Tony.

Tony - as we discussed at Yandles, my 'shop is 20x12' which is the same size as the one you were hoping to build, so you can see just how much room you can get in a 'shop that size if you position the machinery as you want it...nothing on trollys btw as I hate :evil: trailing cables. The only thing that can trundle around is the AirPress, which I use on the 'shop floor, so I have a largish area that doubles for the press and to assemble bigger projects if need be - Rob

 

[MikeG.]

Tony,

thanks........as you can see, floor and bench space are more important to me than machines. Interesting that mine is is also roughly 20x12 as per Rob's........and there is a workshop tour on here somewhere.....

Did I catch a rumour of you moving.....and thus getting the chance of a bigger workshop?

BTW, Rob, I am completely with you on the moving machines thing.....I would hate it! I appreciate that some have no choice, but I just can't imagine how they cope with the hassle.

Mike

 

[p111dom]

This will be of no help really but when I had a Kity 419 I moved house and aquired a double garage. One of the first things I did was to make my router table and buy a reasonable band saw. I found I was using the table saw less and less using the band saw to cut tennons and a mitre saw to trim stock to length. I had plenty of space for assembley. A friend at the time was just setting up and I even advised him strongly that a table saw was not an essential item of machinery and told him to go for a bandsaw instead. At the time I was mainly making things out of pine buying PAR stock that required no further machining. My friend of course ignored me buying a Fox table saw on a really good deal from Rutlands. Shortly after I started buying rough sawn hardwood after buying a small p/t and found I started using my table saw more. I got the oportunity to get a Jet SS brand new for £500 which I couldn't resist after seeing how my frien was getting on with his saw and its been amazing. Not the saw itself but having a big heavy cast iron saw with an accurate top is a revelation. Now I find I'm eating my words to my friend. The mitre saw hardly ever gets used, the table saw being much more accurate. The bandsaw gets very little use too. I'd use it more if I were resawing but its a bit small for that. By adding an outfeed table the same size as the saws 4x2 footrpint if I wind down the blade and remove the crown guard I'm left with a flat 4 foot square table for assembley when all the machining is done. Yes its true you can get buy without a table saw but on reflection, thats all I was doing, getting by. To those who have the room I'd say get one. To those that don't I say "Bummer".

 

[Night Train]

The table saw is also dependent on the type of work you want to do and how you prefer to process it. I will admit that there have been cases where a table saw would have made a task simpler but all in all if I had one and the space for it it wouldn't be used as much as the machines I have for the work I tend to do.

I would say, as my tutor at college said, for your first machine the biggest capacity bandsaw you can afford and find space for will be more useful then any one other machine.
Some may disagree but that is what makes life interesting. :wink:

 

[Escudo]

I remember Rob 20 x 12, I have just enough space that size on one side of the garden. Just got to persuade the missus that if I claim the spot she will come out best, with less garden area to maintain! :wink:

I am not planning to move house Mike just spread out a bit in the garden.

Tony.

 

[Martingchapman]

Adrian,
From the somewhat heated discussion that has arisen from your questions you will see that there are lots of different ways of setting up a workshop;
With a tablesaw
With a bandsaw
With a circular saw and guide rail(s)
With a mitre saw (fixed or sliding)
Plus any or all of the above combinations.

In my opinion I don't think there is any one right or wrong answer, in the end it comes down to how you want to work, and what methods will give you the most satisfaction.

In my rather small workshop (16ft x 8ft) I have a Record TS200C table saw. This works well for me and I am very happy with it.
If you are still considering this saw I posted a review here https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=30267&highlight=record+ts200c

Listen to others opinions but think carefully about what suites the way you want to work, then make a decision.
If, after you have set up your workshop and used the tools for a time you are not comfortable with it then you can sell what you don't like and move onto something you do like.
I have done this a few times (I am sure many others have done the same) and I am now very happy with my workshop setup.

Martin.

 

[pooka]

If I had the space, I too would probably get myself a table saw. Circumstances dictate that it's not a choice for me though, so I make do quite well with a bandsaw and a circular saw with cutting guides. There are times where the repeatability of cut of a table saw, its ability to handle small pieces of wood safely, and its ability to cut joints, would prove very convenient but instead I devise other ways of achieving the same results with the tools that I do have. Mostly what this costs me is the extra time involved to come up with workarounds (although I must admit that safety wouldn't have been the strong point of some of my worst examples of rigging something to produce a result in a hurry).

I face the same issue with lack of proper space for a planer, so instead I spend more time planing by hand and doing slightly creative things with my portable thicknesser.

In both cases, the main cost to me is time. Mind you, these circumstances force me into having to apply more thought into how I achieve my end result, and it could be argued that this is no bad thing. In addition, it obliges me to develop better hand tool skills which is a good result too. However, while I would happily support those arguements on a day where I am not in any hurry to finish a project, and things are going well, there are many days where I would jump at the chance to use a tablesaw and a planer just for a few minutes.

More than anything else though, I find that what can really turn my hobby into a chore is lack of space. I invariably have to move several things around in my workshop to make space for me to work, and I find myself making excuses to postpone starting into a project because of knowing I'll have to go through that frustrating routine every time. Even if I had all of the machinery in the world, I think that lack of space would potentially make my life a misery. So, on balance I'd sooner do without the machinery in order to maintain some kind of reasonable balance of tools/machines versus space. It's a balance that I continually struggle to achieve though.