English Bedrocks

[Vann]

These planes sold over here yesterday (not to me).

The seller claimed the big one is an English Stanley 608. Is there any such thing?

I thought Stanley only made Bedrocks in the States. - the only English Bedrocks being Clifton - but I stand to be corrected.

Cheers, Vann.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing ... =722581592

 

[SteveF]

http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan15.htm#num608

does this help ?

Steve

 

[AndyT]

I expect that you are right Vann, and the plane in question has an English made iron. Inexperienced sellers naturally fall back on anything written on an item, relevant or not.

 

[Vann]

does this help ?

Thanks Steve, but no it doesn't. Blood & Gore steadfastly ignores plane production by Canadian, English and Australian Stanley, so it wouldn't tell us if they were made in UK. I note on rereading, that many models of Bedrock were out of production BEFORE Stanley began producing planes in Britain - but that doesn't necessarily mean they didn't make some Bedrocks in the UK.

I expect that you are right Vann, and the plane in question has an English made iron.

That was my thought too Andy. But did Stanley UK make No.8 planes? I suspect they didn't - but again I could be wrong. If they didn't make No.8 planes in England, are there English No.8 irons? I suppose there might be - after all Clifton made replacement No.8 irons*, but never made No.8 planes.

* up until about 2009

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Billy Flitch]

Van I`am almost certain that Stanley England made No 8 planes but I don't think they put made in England on them but I can not verify any of that. What I can say 100% certain is that Stanly England made No8 irons.

I have a Stanley bed rock No 8 made in the USA but the iron has stamped on it made in England I`ll try to send a pic but I don't think you can make the stamp out.

 

[Vann]

...I can say 100% certain is that Stanly England made No8 irons.

I have a Stanley bed rock No 8 made in the USA but the iron has stamped on it made in England...

I can't make out the wording on the iron, but thank you for confirming the existence of "Made in England" Stanley No.8 irons.

I`am almost certain that Stanley England made No 8 planes but I don't think they put made in England on them but I can not verify any of that.

The country of manufacture is a bit suspicious if they didn't put "Made in England" on the planes. Hopefully someone will come along with more information.

I note (from Patrick Leach's "Blood & Gore") that Stanley stopped making the No.8 in USA in 1961, but Record continued to list their No.08 until 1982 (according to David Lynch's recordhandplanes.com). Would Stanley UK have allowed the opposition to have something they didn't, for 21 years? Possibly they did make some No.8 planes in the UK. Food for thought....

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

My old RCF Tools summer 1976 catalogue (which I should have ditched years ago, and am now glad I didn't) lists Stanley 3, 4, 4 1/2, A4 (intriguingly), 5, 5 1/2, 6 and 7 bench planes, and Record 03, 04, 04 1/2, 05, 05 1/2, 06, 07 and 08 bench planes.

So Stanley didn't offer an 8 in 1976.

PS - What's an A4 plane? The catalogue says it's 9 3/4" long, with a 2" iron - exactly the same as the 4. Also of interest, the Stanley 3 is 9 1/2" long with a 1 3/4" iron, whilst the Record 03 is 9 1/4" long with the same size iron.

PPS - No prices unfortunately. RCF Tools were wholesale only, and price lists were issued seperately to the catalogue.

 

[Vann]

My old RCF Tools summer 1976 catalogue lists Stanley 3, 4, 4 1/2, A4 (intriguingly), 5, 5 1/2, 6 and 7 bench planes, and Record 03, 04, 04 1/2, 05, 05 1/2, 06, 07 and 08 bench planes.

So Stanley didn't offer an 8 in 1976.

Thanks for that info. CC.

What's an A4 plane? The catalogue says it's 9 3/4" long, with a 2" iron - exactly the same as the 4.

The A4 was an aluminium bodied No.4 plane, made in the States from 1925-35 (again according to "Blood & Gore" http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan1.htm#numa4 ) but I can't imagine them still being available in 1976 :!:

I was given a paper Stanley woodworking tools catalogue in 1973. I remember drooling over the various offerings each payday. Unfortunately it and I parted company over the years. I now wish I still had it.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Billy Flitch]

Cheshirechappie interesting I know from roughly the time scale you are talking about that Stanley England produced a 5 1/4 plane yet your catalogue makes no mention of it, strange maybe not all the products were in the catalogue but I don't understand the logic behind that.

 

[Vann]

...that Stanley England produced a 5 1/4 plane...

Interesting. I had assumed (and again, I could be wrong) that Stanley UK only made the more popular models - No.s 3 to 7, 4½, 5½, 10 and 10½ (as far as bench planes go) - with the lower volume models being supplied by Stanley USA (e.g. the No.2, 5¼, 8 & 10¼*)

* with the No.10¼ being discontinued about 1942, I guess it should be excluded from the list.

But the No.5¼ technical training plane is quite unusual over here, so I've only seen a small sampling. They're rarely listed (Record's T5 seems to come up far more often)

If anyone knows more, I'm interested.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Vann]

To get a sampling I trawlled e-bay UK.

Not counting those listed "from USA" there are currently 8 Bedrock planes (of all sizes) listed from UK addresses. All 8 are stated to be US made, or have features not seen on UK Stanleys, such as key-hole lever-caps, non-ogee frogs, low knobs, or USA irons (what's the chances of a UK made Bedrock having a USA iron ?). So from this sampling, I feel strongly that Stanley didn't produce Bedrock planes in the UK.

Of No.8 Bailey planes, there are currently 7 listed. 5 are from USA addresses, so they can be discounted. The remaining two, from UK addresses, are both made in USA. Only a small sample, but no indication of Stanley UK making any.

Of No.5¼ planes, there are currently 6 listed, but all from USA addresses.

I'll have to look again from time to time - but at present I can find no Bedrocks, Bailey No.8s, nor Bailey No.5¼s that are made by Stanley UK.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[caroleb]

I have an 8 and a 5 1/4 and can confirm that both the blades and bodies are USA made. I believe the 5 1/4's were made for schools but for some reason I did think they were made in England too. That may well mean I have taken it for granted, but may also mean I have seen one. The blade on mine is a Sweetheart with the squashed lettering over the heart dating it quite precisely, but to when I can't remember (Help Toolsntat!)
It is possible though that Stanley may have made a short run of either of these planes as I think I have read of instances where a model was thought not to exist and has turned up.

Caz

 

[Billy Flitch]

Van I`ve only ever seen one 5 1/4 that was back in the late seventy's I worked with a apprentice at the time and he had one and it was definitely made in England. Caz I think you may be getting confused with the Record T5, the Stanley 5 1/4 is just a slimmer version of the No5 the iron being the same width as a No3.

I can remember thinking at the time where the advantage would be with a 5 1/4 and the only thig I could come up with was if you where carrying your tools a lot the weight.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/VINTAGE-BAILEY-M ... 1510483292


Any way here are two links the one with the No8, I can't see where it says Made in England but can't see why the guy would say that if it was not so.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hand-Jointer-Pl ... 1509766907

 

[AndyT]

That eBay no 8 might have been made in England (though I can't see anything on the body either) but it's not a bedrock.

 

[Vann]

Van I`ve only ever seen one 5 1/4 that was back in the late seventy's I worked with a apprentice at the time and he had one and it was definitely made in England...
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/VINTAGE-BAILEY-M ... 1510483292

Okay. I accept that Stanley UK made 5¼ planes. The "MADE IN ENGLAND" is clear to see behind the frog. There's no arguing with that.

It appears you are right Caz.

...the one with the No8, I can't see where it says Made in England but can't see why the guy would say that if it was not so.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hand-Jointer-Pl ... 1509766907

This one I feel sure, was not made in UK - despite what the seller says. British Stanleys were based on the US type 16, which was the current model when Stanley took over JA Chapman in 1936. They came with the ogee frog and kidney shaped hole in the lever-cap, from day one.

That No.8 has the small brass wheel (phased out in 1918); the pre-ogee frog (phased out in 1932); the key-hole in the lever-cap (also phased out in 1932); it doesn't say "STANLEY" on the lever-cap (introduced from 1925) and the three patent dates cast into the base, just behind the frog (the patents had all expired by 1928, and the last year all three were cast in the base was 1924).

That would be a nice corrigated base plane if it didn't have so much rust :shock:

So I will wait for better proof before agreeing that Stanley made No.8 planes in England. Thanks for searching those out though. And I'm still looking for an English Stanley Bedrock (of any size).

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Vann]

Looking at that Stanley 5 ¼ "- it appears to be from the same era as my first plane ( a Stanley No.4).

Plated wheel; 2-piece fabricated yoke (Y-lever), and aluminium handle nuts. That makes it early 1970s (mine was bought in 1973). A few years later they'd gone back to cast yokes, with brass wheel and nuts.

Cheers, Vann.