Electrical uncertainty

[beech1948]

Hi,
Calling any sparks with a some knowledge of my minor problem.

I have two lights controlled by 4 switches. Wiring is black/red/green from 1965. Ceiling rose has three connection points --- 1) Three black cables 2) two red cables and 3) one red cable. Obviously single red cable goes back to the switch and is used to interrupt the circuit.

The four switches somewhat baffle me so what can I do with this to replace the lights units with some modern ones.

Final issue is the ceiling rose is 84mm deep and the modern light fittings are 30mm deep so I want to mount flush to the ceiling but can not see a way to preserve the 4 switch action.

Any advice appreciated.

 

[flying haggis]

do you mean that both lights come on by using any of the four switches? if yes then two of the switches are intermediate and the other two are two way

 

[Racers]

No earth?

Time for a rewire I think.

Their should be some slack on the cables which would allow you to fit a spacer behind the ceiling rose.


Pete

 

[Sideways]

Wiring lasts a long time but 1965 is over 50 years.
It's recommended these days to have wiring in a domestic property checked every 10 years. Given the age, if you don't have any records of a recent inspection, it could be worthwhile getting the house checked.
If the wire is still sound it doesn't need to be changed just because you change the fittings but "the internet" is not there to see for ourselves and figure out which bits of 400+ pages of wiring regulations etc you need to be warned about.
If you want to figure it out and do it yourself I totally understand and I'd suggest you start by reading up on two way, three way, multiway switching of lighting circuits - UK practice, not how Wikipedia tells you it's done in other parts of the world. Read about earthing of lighting circuits, about borrowed neutrals which were common back in 1965 but not allowed under modern regulations, and about RCD protection which provides a big increase in protection against shock.
Sorry, but I recommend that you get a sparky in.

 

[beech1948]

Hi all,

Pete Maddox.....circuit is earthed as in red/black and green or earth

Sideways..... getting in a sparky is an option if I can't work it out.

Electrical system was last checked 12 yrs ago and was given an all clear. I'll consider having it checked again.

I have just realised that the ceiling roses are being used as a junction box. The sort of thing a 3 plate junction box does today so I'm on the hunt for a suitable device.

Thanks for the replies and your concerns. I'm now 70 and long since retired but my degree was as a Mechanical and Electrical Engineer so some competence is available.

 

[RogerS]

Hi Beech

Take a look at this for starters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOy486T ... Z2NR_z2gCh

Common practice with a light pendant (ie ceiling rose and bit of wire hanging down to a socket for the light bulb). Lighting wiring usually is a loop-through...ie your mains (L&N&E) from your consumer unit goes to ceiling rose in Room 1 then loops through and onto the ceiling rose in the next room and so on.

But it sounds as if you want to replace the whole lot including the ceiling rose. How easy that is then depends on how much room you have in your new light fitting. Most light fittings will only have three terminals (L/N/E) but you need a fourth which you can do using a bit cut off a terminal block (choc block) or go for a more modern one of these

https://www.screwfix.com/p/ideal-2-port ... f-40/3526g

you'll need a 3-port version probably.

In reality as you have two lights, it might be a little bit more complicated. Just depends on how they have connected the feed to the two lights. In an ideal world, they will have simply run a single cable between the two lights that picks up the same terminals as the wire hanging down to your light bulb socket.

You shouldn't need to mess around with the cables to your switches.

 

[Racers]

Hi all,

Pete Maddox.....circuit is earthed as in red/black and green or earth

Thanks for the replies and your concerns. I'm now 70 and long since retired but my degree was as a Mechanical and Electrical Engineer so some competence is available.

Pete Maddox? his name like my name!

:wink:

Pete (Maddex)

 

[Sideways]

Hi Beech, with your background you'll be able to figure it out
Take a look at spring terminals by Wago and boxes by Wago and by Wiska.
Also Klik pluggable ceiling roses by Hager.
These may be new to you.
They are quality products and have come into widespread use in recent years.

 

[Deejay]

Morning Beech

Another video ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efIwh5s ... Z2NR_z2gCh

Three blacks on the ceiling rose? Google 'borrowed neutral'

What's the wiring on the switches?

Happy buzzing out

Cheers

Dave

 

[beech1948]

Many thanks to you all for advice and comments.

Just to complete this message stack.

Ceiling lights now completed. Solution was to add a bit of chocbloc to cover the second connection point which was two reds without a connection to the light fitting but simply being a loop-in carrying power to the next unit. I still used a couple of 3 plate junction boxes each with 4 wego like terminals on each plate from TLC Electrical Supplies Ltd ( a good company for service)

Whilst I don't condone people like me getting into electrical work this seemed to be merely replacement with like for like attached to the ceiling and so OK.

 

[matt]

+1 for Wago connections and boxes.

When I had a similar space constraint, wiring some small spot lights with about 8mm space behind them... I made junction boxes using c. 10mm conduit (the type with the clip on fronts) which allowed me to pop them up into the ceiling space through the cable hole after wiring. Essentially the conduit housed separate connectors in a line with each connecting cable length optimised to reach the correct terminal. Fiddly but effective and easily accessed again by pulling back through the ceiling. Also, you can trim the conduit cover plate in such a way that you can bend each end down and tape it to reasonable seal the box.

 

[beech1948]

Thanks for that and the earlier message re Wago. It turned out the whole thing was just too tight by about 2 or 3 mm so I had to undo it all and go buy some Wago units which sat nicely in the box around the lamp. Thanks for the advice though.