Electric vehicles

[Lons]

Regarding tax incentives, my work has just sent us details of EVs on our salary sacrifice scheme. Apparently, I can save £661/mo as a high rate tax payer. All money in NI and Income tax that would otherwise go to the government. My neighbour who has his own business has one and he told me that his accountant said he could either have that or give it to the tax man.
Around here EVs are very common but seem to be the preserve of the well off - at least for now,

At the minute as far as I know you can write off the total cost of an EV in the first 12 months if a business, (that's certainly a tax incentive) and apart from no VED charges EVs are also exempt from the 5 year additional VED costs of £390 pa (thats currently £1950 extra) on vehicles over £40k
All that is of course being withdrawn I think next year.

 

[sploo]

Maybe that is why there is so much interest in the moon, not cheese but Lithium resources.

That reminds me of a great comment I saw:

"The billionaires investing space exploration aren't trying to create Star Trek; they're trying to create Dune"

 

[Screwed]

My head isn’t in the sand at all. I’ve made the transition having done my research and it works for me. If you read my previous posts I’ve been quite clear in my views that at the moment EV’s don’t work for everyone though.

No cars (EV or ICE) get sold without marketing or incentives. If I have overlooked some “massive tax incentives” (which was the point of my post) perhaps you could share them?

Hertz are reducing the size of their EV fleet. It’s been discussed earlier in the thread. It’s a bit more nuanced than you suggest.

I do not believe that the production of EV’s is without it’s own environmental challenges. I do however believe that their total impact on the environment (production and lifetime use) is better and will continue to improve.

It’s okay to have different views so no need to claim people have their heads in the sand.

I think saying "I don't believe" at the start of a sentence to refute what I take to be fact and not opinion sets the tone. Your very welcome to your opinion and don't get me wrong as a petrol head any car that can embarrass a supercar is a technical marvel, but I don't in anyway agree with there positive environmental impact nor do I want a computer on wheels especially one that's networked! I still remember the calls for Tesla immobilise all the Russian owner T's at the start of the Ukrainian War.
I also remember a report that showed the Co2 in EV's is front loaded so takes something like 8 years to equal the footprint of an ICE car. However with recent improvements in Diesel engines that figure could well be higher.
The figures and data just don't add up. Maybe it's just marketing, but that just spells manipulation to me.

 

[paulrbarnard]

Regarding tax incentives, my work has just sent us details of EVs on our salary sacrifice scheme. Apparently, I can save £661/mo as a high rate tax payer. All money in NI and Income tax that would otherwise go to the government. My neighbour who has his own business has one and he told me that his accountant said he could either have that or give it to the tax man.
Around here EVs are very common but seem to be the preserve of the well off - at least for now,

I got the same. I’m tempted.

 

[paulrbarnard]

I think saying "I don't believe" at the start of a sentence to refute what I take to be fact and not opinion sets the tone. Your very welcome to your opinion and don't get me wrong as a petrol head any car that can embarrass a supercar is a technical marvel, but I don't in anyway agree with there positive environmental impact nor do I want a computer on wheels especially one that's networked! I still remember the calls for Tesla immobilise all the Russian owner T's at the start of the Ukrainian War.
I also remember a report that showed the Co2 in EV's is front loaded so takes something like 8 years to equal the footprint of an ICE car. However with recent improvements in Diesel engines that figure could well be higher.
The figures and data just don't add up. Maybe it's just marketing, but that just spells manipulation to me.

Or six months if you use different criteria.

• It takes a typical EV about one year in operation to achieve "carbon parity" with an ICE vehicle.
• If the EV draws electricity from a coal/fired grid, however, the catchup period stretches to more than five years.
• If the grid is powered by carbon/free hydroelectricity, the catchup period is about six months.

Source:
https://www.cotes.com/blog/greenhouse-gas-emissions-from-ev-vs-ice-vehicles

 

[Nick Laguna UK]

Regarding tax incentives, my work has just sent us details of EVs on our salary sacrifice scheme. Apparently, I can save £661/mo as a high rate tax payer. All money in NI and Income tax that would otherwise go to the government. My neighbour who has his own business has one and he told me that his accountant said he could either have that or give it to the tax man.
Around here EVs are very common but seem to be the preserve of the well off - at least for now,

That is the only reason I have one. I now get £430 extra a month in my take-home pay due to the low BIK tax on EV company cars.
I felt the Govt. already took enough off me - this was a no brainer, although not a decision I took for any environmental reasons.
I'll still miss my diesel with the huge range, but the BIK tax on that went up stupid high - I'm old enough to remember when company cars were a real perk.
I'm getting on OK with it so far (excellent drive and performance) - cold weather doesn't help range though (230 miles at 1 degree C), and haven't quite put it to a full test on say a 600 mile few days away trip to visit accounts.
I know I will need to stop on long journeys to charge, but will just factor that in.
Lucky to have a charger at home & we have two at work, so when I get below the (panicky for me) 30% point I just plug it back in to 100%

 

[Just4Fun]

cold weather doesn't help range though (230 miles at 1 degree C)

The effect of winter temperatures on range is something that I am particularly interested in, but that information is hard to find. Do you know your car's range in the summer?

A week ago I briefly spoke with a guy who has a Polestar EV. He said the range in summer was 400 km and in the winter it is 250 km. For me, that is a critical difference given some of the common trips our cars do. 400 km range would be workable, but 250 km would not.

 

[Screwed]

Which is why there is massive research in to alternative solutions. Sodium, zinc, iron and dare I say it fusion.
It still amazes me how people conflate what is possible today as being the only viable option in the future. Lithium is the option today for dense storage but technology does not stand still, especially when there is money to be made.

Agreed, but haven't we heard this particular tune being played for decades now. Always the next big breakthrough just around the corner. I lost count how many times that particular line has been used.
Whether it's fairytales or suppressed invention these things take a lifetime to materialise.

 

[Cabinetman]

The effect of winter temperatures on range is something that I am particularly interested in, but that information is hard to find. Do you know your car's range in the summer?

A week ago I briefly spoke with a guy who has a Polestar EV. He said the range in summer was 400 km and in the winter it is 250 km. For me, that is a critical difference given some of the common trips our cars do. 400 km range would be workable, but 250 km would not.

I mentioned it in post 2502, might interest you.
Would it be possible to swop cars at work if going on a longer trip?

 

[Screwed]

Or six months if you use different criteria.

• It takes a typical EV about one year in operation to achieve "carbon parity" with an ICE vehicle.
• If the EV draws electricity from a coal/fired grid, however, the catchup period stretches to more than five years.
• If the grid is powered by carbon/free hydroelectricity, the catchup period is about six months.

Source:
https://www.cotes.com/blog/greenhouse-gas-emissions-from-ev-vs-ice-vehicles

That smells rather fishy. 8 years to 6 months
Guess we all have our favourite sources of information. There trying way to hard to flog a dead donkey imo.

 

[Vulcan]

Which is why there is massive research in to alternative solutions. Sodium, zinc, iron and dare I say it fusion.
It still amazes me how people conflate what is possible today as being the only viable option in the future. Lithium is the option today for dense storage but technology does not stand still, especially when there is money to be made.

There is apparently more than enough lithium for the foreseeable future even without recycling. That’s a bit beside the point though as Volkswagens joint venture in China is already selling EV’s with *Sodium batteries.
Another myth is “there’s not enough Copper”. Maybe, but Tesla already use a lot of Aluminium for the electrics in their cars because it’s cheaper and lighter than Copper.
*Battery technology is developing quite fast now with smaller, lighter and more energy dense versions predicted for the near future.

 

[Vulcan]

Maybe this idea will eventually catch on?

 

[sploo]

That smells rather fishy. 8 years to 6 months
Guess we all have our favourite sources of information. There trying way to hard to flog a dead donkey imo.

I don't know "the truth" regarding the actual figures, but it doesn't sound impossible.

Once an EV has been manufactured, if (and of course, it's a big if) that car was only ever charged from carbon free sources then its lifetime emissions (after manufacture) is effectively zero. An ICE car however is by nature producing CO2 for every mile driven.

A quick Google search claims the average age of a car on UK roads is somewhere between 8 and 9 years. So assuming the EVs last that long they would ultimately produce less CO2 than an ICE equivalent; even if it did take a full 8 years to reach carbon parity.

 

[Screwed]

I don't know "the truth" regarding the actual figures, but it doesn't sound impossible.

Once an EV has been manufactured, if (and of course, it's a big if) that car was only ever charged from carbon free sources then its lifetime emissions (after manufacture) is effectively zero. An ICE car however is by nature producing CO2 for every mile driven.

A quick Google search claims the average age of a car on UK roads is somewhere between 8 and 9 years. So assuming the EVs last that long they would ultimately produce less CO2 than an ICE equivalent; even if it did take a full 8 years to reach carbon parity.

The only flaw in that is there no such thing as a Carbon free Source of electric. It's all smoke and mirrors!
Quite why us the question. To take power and wealth away from the Oil. To gain more control over the vehicle. Who knows, but EV's are something being pushed very hard and at a lot of expense (Subs of £5k, taxes breaks of the same or more. Ved breaks too). Not known anything quite like it except the vast amounts of money wasted on Space.

 

[Blackswanwood]

The only flaw in that is there no such thing as a Carbon free Source of electric. It's all smoke and mirrors!
Quite why us the question. To take power and wealth away from the Oil. To gain more control over the vehicle. Who knows, but EV's are something being pushed very hard and at a lot of expense (Subs of £5k, taxes breaks of the same or more. Ved breaks too). Not known anything quite like it except the vast amounts of money wasted on Space.

Would solar and wind generated electricity not be classed as carbon free?

 

[RogerS]

Would solar and wind generated electricity not be classed as carbon free?

When they are running, yes. But they have a carbon footprint, surely, when they are made ?

 

[Terry - Somerset]

The carbon consumed in the construction of a wind turbine is estimated at 3-8 months.

The design life of a wind turbine is 20-30 years.

So not carbon free - but (as a broad assumption) ~5% of the lifetime emissions of electricity generated with fossil fuels.

 

[Screwed]

Would solar and wind generated electricity not be classed as carbon free?

How are they made?
And disposal is apparently very unfriendly of both (again it's just moving the goal posts). Although one company is now making wind turbine blades from wood I believe which is a step in the right direction if we're ok with cutting trees down
But green Elec will never be enough. Apparently we were very good in supplying green elec and had an impressive setup. Well it didn't help any in keeping living costs down did it?

 

[Screwed]

The carbon consumed in the construction of a wind turbine is estimated at 3-8 months.

The design life of a wind turbine is 20-30 years.

So not carbon free - but (as a broad assumption) ~5% of the lifetime emissions of electricity generated with fossil fuels.

Not sure what sized ones that refers to, but a decent sized one uses a lot of concrete and isn't that one of the worst Co2 polluters. Tons of steel too and whatever those blades are made out of.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

How are they made?
And disposal is apparently very unfriendly of both (again it's just moving the goal posts). Although one company is now making wind turbine blades from wood I believe which is a step in the right direction if we're ok with cutting trees down
But green Elec will never be enough. Apparently we were very good in supplying green elec and had an impressive setup. Well it didn't help any in keeping living costs down did it?

Apparently approx 96% of a wind turbine is made of recyclable materials - National Grid.

Even accepting they may be putting a somewhat positive slant on things, I doubt it is any more polluting than fossil fuel generation.

Total UK electricity consumption was 275TWhrs/year in 2022. It is estimated that the UK has the potential to generate ~3000TWhrs/year from "green" sources - mainly offshore wind.

There are some issues - in particular overcoming variability of generation. But to assert that green electricity will never be enough is entirely wrong even allowing for some estimating errors.