Electric motors. Where to find them and what uses them.

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JustBen

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Hi guys/gals.

I've searched the forum and google with limited results so hopefully someone can help.

I like to build my own machines and for those machines I need motors.

Induction motors can be expensive so what everyday machines use inductions motors and what sort of hp/watts and rpm would you get from them? Are they all AC?

For example

Washing machine,
Tumble dryer,
Dishwasher,
Hoover,
Etc.

These are all items that get collected by the scrap man for next to nothing or free but may have useful parts in them.

Universal motors are very loud so I want to avoid them.

I know a dedicated/ purpose build induction motor will always be better but if a free motor lasts for 12 months, I think it's worth it.

I hope this makes sense.

Thanks in advance.
 
Washing machine: probably not useful. The motor is under electronic control and has multiple windings, making it difficult to adapt to other jobs. Solenoid valves can be re-used elsewhere sometimes (but mains+water!) unsuitable for petrochemicals. Likewise the pump, but those in appliances are not self-priming - they almost always need to be below the liquid level or they airlock when you turn them on.

Tumble Dryer: has a small, highly geared motor (belt driven). Possibly useful if you can get suitable belts (the motor's "pulley" is usually squared-off grooves on its shaft, for cheapness, like my bandsaw and table saw belts).

Domestic dishwasher: just pump(s) and solenoid valves - no motor for moving things (that's done by water pressure). The commercial ones (Hobart, etc.) may have conveyor motors, etc., but I've no experience of them.

Hoover: modern ones have motors that aren't easily adapted, apart from the "Dalek" types (Nilfisk, Numatic, Earlex, etc.). These motors are powerful and self-contained, BUT they need forced air cooling and they're not very efficient. The same motors are fitted to many portable dust extractors. New spares are easily sourced but not cheap: £50-100 is typical, and often it's more than a new machine because of pipeline costs.

Vehicle starter motors: For years the staple diet of cavers wanting to build strong masonry drills for use underground, until modern battery drills arrived. You welded a masonry drill straight onto the shaft and ran it from a gel 12V battery. Hi torque (high current!), electrically safe (in a cave!), but won't run reliably for extended periods. They might also be adapted to serve as dynamos (DC generators), although probably not as efficient as...

... vehicle alternators: generate an AC wave that's rectified in a diode block to approx 13.5V for the vehicle (same for lorries but read about 27V (at a guess). No good as a motor!

Fridges: disposal of refrigerant is an issue, but fridge compressors are good for vacuum pumps for veneering.

Central heating pumps: The external ones (outside the boiler) are handy: they are designed to run hot, so if you find a working one it will probably stay working for ages (make friends with a plumber!). They often have a simple speed control built in. They are reasonably tolerant of some solids in the liquid (use a filter for large lumps, but sand-sized particles shouldn't cause immediate failure). They're designed to be quickly replaced too, so if you use one and it fails, you can easily drop in another. Downsides: They are pumps only: the rotor is immersed in the liquid being pumped (usually water), and relies on this fact both for lubrication and for cooling. The ones I've dismantled haven't had proper bearings - the rotor 'floats' in the middle of the field windings, surrounded by the liquid it's pumping. They're also an odd compromise between pressure and volume flow - works for central heating but can be a PITA for other applications. During the dry spells of the late 1980s I used one to empty the bath in our basement bathroom onto the garden. It would just about drive a sprinkler, but not well - it didn't have enough pressure. You can get 'negative head' pressure switches that will sense water demand and operate the pump, but when I last looked they weren't cheap, and CH pumps will allow flow backwards when they're off as the rotor can turn freely in either direction.

More on central heating: the motorised valves have small mains induction motors in them:

These can be handy. They're small, fairly quiet, and work in one direction only (not reversible) but they come with a high ratio gearbox fitted, and they're designed to be stalled for long periods while the valve is open (it closes with a spring, which the motor stretches to open the valve). They have plates to mount them (as you can see they're screwed or bolted onto the mounting), and spares are commonplace. I note in passing they've shot up in price recently - were around £6 three or four years ago!

Other stuff: Kenwood "Chef" food mixers have mains motor systems that are variable speed with reasonable torque (but there's a lot of gearing-down in the machine). On the down side, it's the motor control that tends to wear out or break first.

Hand-held modern power drills have decent motors at varying low voltages. They're intended to be variable speed so might be adapted.

Older appliances and machines were designed with the motor as a separate component, often bought in from the likes of GEC, and fitted as one unit into a casing or onto the machine. Good examples are electric air fans, large air conditioners and garage air compressors. Those will mainly be single-speed motors and adaptable for other uses.

Modern designs save cost by incorporating the motor into the device. So a modern hoover doesn't have a separate motor inside: the "casing" for the motor is made from the outer shell of the machine, even down to bearing carriers being moulded into the plastic. These are almost impossible to 're-purpose'.

Note too that induction motors are designed to run at a single speed. anything that changes the speed the things run at is usually external to the motor, for example a set of pulleys or a gearbox on a lathe. They're quieter than brushed motors, but the latter are what you need if you want to control the speed.

If you recycle motors from old mains appliances, watch for overheated and thus dangerous wiring (goes brittle and the insulation drops off), worn out bearings, etc. Unless it's just for fun, and you know you can get a ready supply of identical motors as drop-in replacements, you may be better off using something new.

Remember that generally, like cars, each design of appliance has its own failure modes. "They all do that, sir." And they will. If one hoover died when the top motor bearing failed, every motor you blag from that design is likely to have the same weakness.

It's one reason why you might have more success with old cordless power tools - they are usually varispeed, and it's the battery that dies, not the motor.

Well, that lot should get you thinking!

E.

PS: Small fans are almost always "squirrel cage" induction motors (Google it). Even those for 12V supply are like that, and they need 50Hz AC to operate. These are inefficient, low power motors (generally speaking), used mainly because they're quiet and cheap to make. You're highly unlikely to be able to adapt them to anything, especially as the failure mode is almost always the cheap bearings!

PPS: The mechanical systems from computer printers can be a very good source of bits, also big flatbed scanners and plotters (if you can still find any of the latter). Usually 12V DC motors, they have shaft encoders, and can be moved very precisely, often bi-directionally. The ones from bigger machines, e.g. departmental-sized copiers and printers can be quite chunky. Driving them, however, is complex.
 
What do you plan to make??

I use cordless power tool motors and motors from things like paper shredders to make Halloween props. Drill motors are great as you have the trigger as the speed control which can be mounted then by using a bolt you can make a speed control knob that simply puts pressure on the switch to speed it put as you turn it.

Another idea is motors from tile cutters, you can even use the base to make a disc sander or alike. Motors from fans don't tend to have much torque but may work as an air filter.

Motors from mains power tools like belt sanders have quite some torque and come with speed control but they will not power large machines if your thinking of making bandsaws and alike.
 
Wow. Thank you Eric. A mass amount of info there.

At the moment I'm after a motor for a homemade bandsaw (woodgears.ca)

I would also like to build a planer/thicknesser if I can't find one at the right price. That's if I ever find a cutter head.
I could use the motor in my current bandsaw but its a bit under powered. (300w)

I've made static belt and disk sanders using bench grinders which work well but again they are only 150-300w motors.

Having said that, my startrite tablesaw only has a 700ish watt motor(iirc) and it flies through anything I throw at it.

I've got a collection of small stepper motors and other printer parts so far that I will hopefully build a small CNC machine with at some point.

I do have a few spare sds drills/circular saws/jigsaws that have motors I could use but they are all universal and hurt my ears.

Sorry. The table saw motor is 900w(brook crompton)

I do have an old hilka bench grinder and although it only has 350w, it's very powerful so maybe that could be used.
 
To be honest, Ben, it sounds like you're well ahead of the curve!

Brook Crompton are good and maintainable. It may be an imperial size shaft, but that's not insurmountable.

Motors won't be the problem for a planer though. There are good reasons why you don't see home made ones: Safety, precision, difficulty of construction.

If you have an engineering workshop, most of the things you mention might be made (I wouldn't contemplate a planer - the cutter block machining would be 'entertaining' for a start!), but it would be easier to refurbish a cast-off that was originally well made than start from scratch.

The one thing, though, that I am considering making is a "routerlathe".

It's only really a variation on the boxes used with scratch stocks for table legs, etc. and not complex. I think you can get gears on line and the leadscrew is straightforward. That said, I suspect the Craftsman/Trend design uses wires as they don't clog with sawdust. I'm sure that can be overcome though. It's an in-my-head design at the moment, but little by little I'm finding things I can use, so it may get off the ground one day soon. Who knows?

E.
 
I have successfully made a 6" buffing wheel driven by a Spin Drier motor, remember them? Specification seems to be about the same as the flexible drive carving set-ups. Something else which is well down my round toit list. Do you ever see spin driers these days?
xy
 
Oh I can't use the brook crompton motor. That's on my table saw which is my pride and joy.
I bought it off a member from here(can't remember name though).
It was in need of a fair bit of TLC. I've completely stripped, cleaned and sprayed it including the motor and now it runs like a dream, looks great and does everything I ask of it. It's solid and mm perfect on every cut.

I'm a big fan of the woodgears.ca website and have got much inspiration from there.

I wouldn't want to make a cutter block. That would be a lot of hard work and a big headache. Like you said, it was a machine in non working order that I would be looking for with most parts remaining.

I will look out for a tumble dryer motor as that seems to be the most promising.

I think I may have to bit the bullet and buy a motor if I can't find one for the bandsaw.

I will keep searching though.
 
For those that are interested, here are a couple of images.
Since these were taken, I've put a Freud blade on, enclosed the wiring, made a new aluminium zero clearance insert, added a better fence, polished the top and a few other bits.



 
If you are patient (tho' who is????), then the best source of motors seems to be the FreeAd type of papers, or carboots. Those (and the farmer up the road!) have been the source of all the motors on my machinery, all induction motors, from 1hp upwards single phase. Unless you pay silly money, they won't lose value sitting in your shed until needed. And IMHO, older Brook, GEC etc motors will knock spots off more modern equivalents, though you will possibly wreck your back moving them.
Another possible source is motor rewind companies - stuff that has been brought in for rewinding and never collected or similar.
 
I agree with going to motor re-winders, I have got some great deals, the last one I got was a nice 3hp brooks £25. I did try my local scrapmerchants but they weren't much use. I also got some 3 phase motors of ebay for next to notheing, I think people were put off because they were really old. The old ones are pretty much bomb proof. A bit heavy aswell
 
I agree about old motors. My brook crompton motor must be older than me(30) and its almost silent. I bet most of the hum comes from the blade although I have noticed a big difference in noise changing from a cheap silverline to a Freud blade.

I will look into motor rewinders. Never thought of that.
 
Eric The Viking":2vrldbnl said:
The one thing, though, that I am considering making is a "routerlathe".

Have you seen Bill Hylton's design for a Router Lathe? As opposed to leadscrews and precision gears, it uses bike gear components. The chuck has a large chain ring on the back of it, which drives a parallel shaft which is attached to a bevel gearbox. This rotates a chain along the bed of the lathe, which can be used to drive the router carriage up and down the bed by cranking it from the front. The router carriage rests on a support at the back which can take a template, so as the router is moved up and down the bed it can generate a profile along the spindle. Because of the gearing (which you can change by using different sprockets on the chuck and the bevel drive) you can rout very impressive looking spirals as well. If you're interested, the plans and details are in "Router Magic".
 
I have a 3 phase motor I keep trying to sell but no one wants it. Tempted to use it now I have 3 phase but I can't think what for. It came off a startrite bandsaw. It is heavy so I guess no one will want to pay the postage.
 
For about £8 you can get 'Electric Motors in the Home Workshop (Nexus Special Interests) by V J Cox' which goes into detail on the different types of motors, including retrieving used ones. It's good for reading up on the subject, but you still need a source of motors to be able to use the information. I bought a 3/4 HP single phase motor from ebay for £20 and close enough to home to collect, otherwise the postage would have been another £20.

K
 
You'd be surprised how much it can cost to get heavy things delivered. I got three monster motors for £15 each and had them couriered from devon to durham for £38. I didn't need them at the time but one has since gone into a sagar saw and another I have just started useing to boost the power of my static converter
 
benjimano":2ay5c7sm said:
Oh I can't use the brook crompton motor. That's on my table saw which is my pride and joy.
I bought it off a member from here(can't remember name though).
It was in need of a fair bit of TLC. I've completely stripped, cleaned and sprayed it including the motor and now it runs like a dream, looks great and does everything I ask of it. It's solid and mm perfect on every cut.
That most certainly is my old saw, glad to see it went to a good home and got the care it deserved. Well done.
 
The other source is windscreen wiper motors perhas form a Volvo or other big screen car. 12v of course but I saw one some where as a small mechanical hacksaw. May have a high torque for its size but need to check if it is continos cycle or back and forth as they did on the old ones. Anyway a lot of good info passed over by previous notes so am going to read this thread a bit more closely. Thanks to alll and best wishes.
 
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