nev
Established Member
paperback: needs paper and ink, printers, packagers, deliverers to wholesalers, retailers and customers. 3.00 delivered
Ebook: needs a server. 4.99
Go figure!
:evil:
Ebook: needs a server. 4.99
Go figure!
:evil:
ebook vs paperback mini rant
- Thread starter nev
- Start date
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Stanleymonkey
Established Member
If they use less paper though its more wood for us to butcher 
[/quote]
You are a very wise man
[/quote]You are a very wise man
kindle unlimited. e books free. I read many, many (yeah, even MANY) books on it. I would need to be a wealthy man to be able to buy all the books I read. Especially if I decide I dont like it after the first two pages. Delete, download another, carry on.
AES
Established Member
Hullo all,
Here's a take on E-books from a confirmed "conput/fuser Luddite" and a definite very "late adopter" of just about anything new, "modern", electronic, or what I consider to be in any way geek-ish. Specifically I'm talking about Amazon/Kindle here:
Advantages:
1. Both my wife and I are avid readers of all sorts of books. Our living room wall is literally covered from almost the floor up to ceiling height with over flowing bookshelves, and there is overspill in just about every other room in the house! I've NO idea how many there are, but it's LOTS! We both have Amazon Kindles (the "Paperwhite" model, so they're quite old versions). Each has +/- 300 books stored (in a package roughly the size of 1 slim paper back volume), which of course we can take anywhere - including reading in bed, in hospital, etc, and regardless of the size of the original book.
2. Amazon automatically backs up all these books on their own, account-dedicated to me/us personally, with a "Cloud"-type server somewhere. It works through a wifi system, so if you're at home, or logged on somewhere else, it all functions automatically, in the background, while you're reading.
4. The screen allows you to read a book in just about any ambient light conditions.
5. My wife has slowly failing eyesight (called "grau star" here - not sure what it's called in English) and although the deterioration rate has slowed, she'll need one or maybe two eye op/s one day. Meantime her ability to focus on print is reduced, and varies according to time of day and current ambient lighting. As above she can read her Kindle anywhere, because she can also easily adjust the size of the typeface and word spacing to suit her needs at any particular time.
6. Of course our Kindles need power, but even when we are both reading for (I guess) a total of 2-3 hours/day, on average they only need re-charging about once a week. The charger supplied (one of the smallest and handiest I've ever seen until the current generation of smart phones) goes into any wall socket anywhere, and can also plug into any USB (PC, tram, on the train, etc). And having spent a lot of my professional life travelling to all sorts of weird and (often not so!) wonderful places, I already owned a small travel charger which includes a solar cell. It works everywhere and charges/has charged my laptop, printer, phone, etc, and later on, my Kindle too. "Desert islands?" "No problem Sir".
7. I always read (at home) with a dictionary nearby (saves surprises when unknown words crop up). Still do actually. But Kindle has a very quick and easy to use multi-language dictionary built in. Unknown word? 1 click brings a cursor over the word. A 2nd click gives an immediate definition on screen. More info needed? A 3rd click brings up a full definition, with links to associated words. Great feature.
8. How else could I lie in bed at 4.00 am and browse a book store - and order? And how else can I get virtually instant delivery at NIL cost?
9. Here (Switzerland) a typical paper back costs about 15 to 25 Swiss Francs (roughly 10 quid+). I'm not sure if VAT is included on that or not. But here a Kindle E-book costs, on average, about half that. Only "hot new releases" cost more, and very often, a few weeks later, the price drops down to the above average.
10. I automatically get info on new releases or other stuff that Amazon thinks I might like. Their ideas of what I might like are sometimes quite off the wall, if not downright ridiculous, but are often bang on target. And they also allow me to pre-order books before release date. All automatically.
11. The range of E-books available for Kindle is larger, more extensive, and more subject all-encompassing than any book store could possibly stock. And they seem to be constantly adding older books (sometimes much older) to their E-book lists.
12. We've neither of us tried it, but you can use Kindle to subscribe to newspapers and magazines - with the above almost instant and nil cost delivery advantages.
13. Completely free of charge you can download a sample of a book you think you might like. If you do you buy it. If not you just delete it. NO cost.
14. Apparently (again we've neither of us tried it, we're just not interested) more modern versions of our Kindles allow viewing videos too. Music too? Dunno, but probably.
15. Like Aldi and Lidl for example, Amazon's customer service has been found to be second to none. No cost whatever, your choice of E-mail or phone call, friendly, very helpful, and very knowledgeable/efficient staff. Very seldom needed but very nice when Kindle does go bonk - or as has happened VERY occasionally, when you buy an E-book with so many errors in it that it just becomes unreadable - absolutely no quibble money back, again virtually instant.
I've really surprised myself - it's the first time I've ever tried to list all the Kindle advantages formally, on paper, rather than just have the gut feel of "this thing really IS good".
Disadvantages:
1. Kindle E-books are worse than useless (as well as highly annoying) with any book that contains photos, diagrams, maps, etc. especially if these form an important part of the narrative. Yes, you can expand the page on screen (through the very clunky keyboard) BUT in so doing you loose the "page overview". (I've seen exactly the same problem with aircraft maintenance engineers using tablet computers, etc, in the hangar and work shop). OK for text, but (in my old-fashioned view anyway) you just can't beat a good paper print out - especially if it's a diagram, schematic, parts break down, circuit diagram, etc. We've both now stopped buying any E-books at all with such content (knitting & dress making patterns included).
2. For similar reasons, Kindle is absolutely useless to take into your own workshop.
3. Amazon says our Kindles handle .pdf files as well as their own E-book format. They do - after a fashion. In reality, there are similar problems to those in item 1 above, and the way you're supposed to manoeuvre around in a .pdf file is so clunky (that stupid keyboard again) that we've both just given up with it. Far better to get the .pdf onto the PC screen and print out parts as required.
4. Kindle gives the ability to set up your own indexing system and we've both done that (by author, subject - whatever you like). But (again that BLOOMING keyboard) it's such a slow and infuriating task that it would be MUCH easier to just put a real book on the shelf in the required place (IF we had a big enough bookcase)!
5. Both my wife have spent HOURS browsing bookshops over the years - and rarely do we leave one without having purchased something! Still do browse such shops, but less so these days. Personally, "post-Kindle", I spend less time and money in the (excellent) English book shop in Basel. So I guess it's true that Amazon is driving bookshops out of business. That's a great pity. But to us anyway, the above advantages outweigh that. Sorry bookshops. Perhaps they need to look for a way to make visiting them outweigh the above advantages.
6. Apparently Amazon (and others) doesn't pay the tax that they really should. As until retirement we were both directors of our own limited company, we were always careful to pay exactly what we should pay - NO funny business. But equally, we both (and our accountant) were very careful to claim for all available legal reliefs - just sound business practice we think. Having had personal experience of the tax laws of Switzerland, UK, and Germany, we both know that not only are the tax laws extremely complex in all these countries, they're sometimes also downright unfair. But tax laws in all these countries are written by highly paid (apparent) experts. So if these "ladies and gentlemen" cannot draft the laws and regulations to achieve what they actually want to achieve from the likes of Amazon, we just say "Hard luck Ladies & Gents, better luck next time round".
I think this has turned into a rant. NOT my original intention and hope it's not too boring.
Within the above limitations, we say "long live Amazon" (or Kindle anyway). BTW I find Amazon rather less effective to deal with when it comes to "hard" items such as tools.
AES
Here's a take on E-books from a confirmed "conput/fuser Luddite" and a definite very "late adopter" of just about anything new, "modern", electronic, or what I consider to be in any way geek-ish. Specifically I'm talking about Amazon/Kindle here:
Advantages:
1. Both my wife and I are avid readers of all sorts of books. Our living room wall is literally covered from almost the floor up to ceiling height with over flowing bookshelves, and there is overspill in just about every other room in the house! I've NO idea how many there are, but it's LOTS! We both have Amazon Kindles (the "Paperwhite" model, so they're quite old versions). Each has +/- 300 books stored (in a package roughly the size of 1 slim paper back volume), which of course we can take anywhere - including reading in bed, in hospital, etc, and regardless of the size of the original book.
2. Amazon automatically backs up all these books on their own, account-dedicated to me/us personally, with a "Cloud"-type server somewhere. It works through a wifi system, so if you're at home, or logged on somewhere else, it all functions automatically, in the background, while you're reading.
4. The screen allows you to read a book in just about any ambient light conditions.
5. My wife has slowly failing eyesight (called "grau star" here - not sure what it's called in English) and although the deterioration rate has slowed, she'll need one or maybe two eye op/s one day. Meantime her ability to focus on print is reduced, and varies according to time of day and current ambient lighting. As above she can read her Kindle anywhere, because she can also easily adjust the size of the typeface and word spacing to suit her needs at any particular time.
6. Of course our Kindles need power, but even when we are both reading for (I guess) a total of 2-3 hours/day, on average they only need re-charging about once a week. The charger supplied (one of the smallest and handiest I've ever seen until the current generation of smart phones) goes into any wall socket anywhere, and can also plug into any USB (PC, tram, on the train, etc). And having spent a lot of my professional life travelling to all sorts of weird and (often not so!) wonderful places, I already owned a small travel charger which includes a solar cell. It works everywhere and charges/has charged my laptop, printer, phone, etc, and later on, my Kindle too. "Desert islands?" "No problem Sir".
7. I always read (at home) with a dictionary nearby (saves surprises when unknown words crop up). Still do actually. But Kindle has a very quick and easy to use multi-language dictionary built in. Unknown word? 1 click brings a cursor over the word. A 2nd click gives an immediate definition on screen. More info needed? A 3rd click brings up a full definition, with links to associated words. Great feature.
8. How else could I lie in bed at 4.00 am and browse a book store - and order? And how else can I get virtually instant delivery at NIL cost?
9. Here (Switzerland) a typical paper back costs about 15 to 25 Swiss Francs (roughly 10 quid+). I'm not sure if VAT is included on that or not. But here a Kindle E-book costs, on average, about half that. Only "hot new releases" cost more, and very often, a few weeks later, the price drops down to the above average.
10. I automatically get info on new releases or other stuff that Amazon thinks I might like. Their ideas of what I might like are sometimes quite off the wall, if not downright ridiculous, but are often bang on target. And they also allow me to pre-order books before release date. All automatically.
11. The range of E-books available for Kindle is larger, more extensive, and more subject all-encompassing than any book store could possibly stock. And they seem to be constantly adding older books (sometimes much older) to their E-book lists.
12. We've neither of us tried it, but you can use Kindle to subscribe to newspapers and magazines - with the above almost instant and nil cost delivery advantages.
13. Completely free of charge you can download a sample of a book you think you might like. If you do you buy it. If not you just delete it. NO cost.
14. Apparently (again we've neither of us tried it, we're just not interested) more modern versions of our Kindles allow viewing videos too. Music too? Dunno, but probably.
15. Like Aldi and Lidl for example, Amazon's customer service has been found to be second to none. No cost whatever, your choice of E-mail or phone call, friendly, very helpful, and very knowledgeable/efficient staff. Very seldom needed but very nice when Kindle does go bonk - or as has happened VERY occasionally, when you buy an E-book with so many errors in it that it just becomes unreadable - absolutely no quibble money back, again virtually instant.
I've really surprised myself - it's the first time I've ever tried to list all the Kindle advantages formally, on paper, rather than just have the gut feel of "this thing really IS good".
Disadvantages:
1. Kindle E-books are worse than useless (as well as highly annoying) with any book that contains photos, diagrams, maps, etc. especially if these form an important part of the narrative. Yes, you can expand the page on screen (through the very clunky keyboard) BUT in so doing you loose the "page overview". (I've seen exactly the same problem with aircraft maintenance engineers using tablet computers, etc, in the hangar and work shop). OK for text, but (in my old-fashioned view anyway) you just can't beat a good paper print out - especially if it's a diagram, schematic, parts break down, circuit diagram, etc. We've both now stopped buying any E-books at all with such content (knitting & dress making patterns included).
2. For similar reasons, Kindle is absolutely useless to take into your own workshop.
3. Amazon says our Kindles handle .pdf files as well as their own E-book format. They do - after a fashion. In reality, there are similar problems to those in item 1 above, and the way you're supposed to manoeuvre around in a .pdf file is so clunky (that stupid keyboard again) that we've both just given up with it. Far better to get the .pdf onto the PC screen and print out parts as required.
4. Kindle gives the ability to set up your own indexing system and we've both done that (by author, subject - whatever you like). But (again that BLOOMING keyboard) it's such a slow and infuriating task that it would be MUCH easier to just put a real book on the shelf in the required place (IF we had a big enough bookcase)!
5. Both my wife have spent HOURS browsing bookshops over the years - and rarely do we leave one without having purchased something! Still do browse such shops, but less so these days. Personally, "post-Kindle", I spend less time and money in the (excellent) English book shop in Basel. So I guess it's true that Amazon is driving bookshops out of business. That's a great pity. But to us anyway, the above advantages outweigh that. Sorry bookshops. Perhaps they need to look for a way to make visiting them outweigh the above advantages.
6. Apparently Amazon (and others) doesn't pay the tax that they really should. As until retirement we were both directors of our own limited company, we were always careful to pay exactly what we should pay - NO funny business. But equally, we both (and our accountant) were very careful to claim for all available legal reliefs - just sound business practice we think. Having had personal experience of the tax laws of Switzerland, UK, and Germany, we both know that not only are the tax laws extremely complex in all these countries, they're sometimes also downright unfair. But tax laws in all these countries are written by highly paid (apparent) experts. So if these "ladies and gentlemen" cannot draft the laws and regulations to achieve what they actually want to achieve from the likes of Amazon, we just say "Hard luck Ladies & Gents, better luck next time round".
I think this has turned into a rant. NOT my original intention and hope it's not too boring.
Within the above limitations, we say "long live Amazon" (or Kindle anyway). BTW I find Amazon rather less effective to deal with when it comes to "hard" items such as tools.
AES
AES
Established Member
A P.S. in reply to sunnybob.
Our Kindles don't do Amazon Prime (or whatever it's called), I think our Paperwhites are too old. Because of free samples we don't miss the Prime thingy.
Anyway never mind, we both work on the basis of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" (as said somewhere above, we're both - very - late adopters of new stuff).
Anyway, buying something new when the old item still works leaves less cash free for buying new books (or tools, or whatever)!
It's also the reason why we deliberately go out of our way to avoid updating any software applications we own (apart from the MS automatic ones which are free).
In our view, as well as costing hard-earned dosh, software updates mainly just make you learn (often painfully) a new way of learning to do something you've previously learnt how to do (also often laboriously), and usually NOT resulting in a better or more powerful result, just different. (Bloody marketing flower arrangers).
"Security?", I hear you ask.
As far as we know, the software on our Kindles has never been updated, AND they've never been hacked in any way. Never even heard of Kindles being hacked or got at in any way by criminals.
FWIW. AES
Our Kindles don't do Amazon Prime (or whatever it's called), I think our Paperwhites are too old. Because of free samples we don't miss the Prime thingy.
Anyway never mind, we both work on the basis of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" (as said somewhere above, we're both - very - late adopters of new stuff).
Anyway, buying something new when the old item still works leaves less cash free for buying new books (or tools, or whatever)!
It's also the reason why we deliberately go out of our way to avoid updating any software applications we own (apart from the MS automatic ones which are free).
In our view, as well as costing hard-earned dosh, software updates mainly just make you learn (often painfully) a new way of learning to do something you've previously learnt how to do (also often laboriously), and usually NOT resulting in a better or more powerful result, just different. (Bloody marketing flower arrangers).
"Security?", I hear you ask.
As far as we know, the software on our Kindles has never been updated, AND they've never been hacked in any way. Never even heard of Kindles being hacked or got at in any way by criminals.
FWIW. AES
My missus is the kindle freak, she uses the big fire for everything a laptop used to do. She uses facebook and games and emails and messaging and everything!
She has the prime package, my old hd fire (now broken with a U/S charger socket) and my paper white are all slaved to hers.
I admit I fought it, but as a lifelong reader of thousands of books loaned from every library and hotel foyer in the world, I finally caved in when my local library closed and I was faced with scanning the used book stores at sunday markets.
I can either buy a book, or "read for free". I can have up to 10 books in the queue, and as soon as I download book 11, I have to return one. Brilliant system as when I decide I dont want to read it after the first chapter, I just download another, even if it is midnight and I'm reading under the blankets with the light off.
Despite having a dozen unread books in the cupboard, I am a full convert and now just read the kindle.
One recommendation; start reading "The corridor man". Make sure you read the series in order, because youll never catch up otherwise. Makes Jack Reacher look like a slow worm
She has the prime package, my old hd fire (now broken with a U/S charger socket) and my paper white are all slaved to hers.
I admit I fought it, but as a lifelong reader of thousands of books loaned from every library and hotel foyer in the world, I finally caved in when my local library closed and I was faced with scanning the used book stores at sunday markets.
I can either buy a book, or "read for free". I can have up to 10 books in the queue, and as soon as I download book 11, I have to return one. Brilliant system as when I decide I dont want to read it after the first chapter, I just download another, even if it is midnight and I'm reading under the blankets with the light off.
Despite having a dozen unread books in the cupboard, I am a full convert and now just read the kindle.
One recommendation; start reading "The corridor man". Make sure you read the series in order, because youll never catch up otherwise. Makes Jack Reacher look like a slow worm
AES
Established Member
Thanks for that sunnybob.
You wrote, QUOTE: ... start reading "The corridor man". Makes Jack Reacher look like a slow worm. UNQUOTE.
Thanks a lot for the tip. Never heard of it/him/them, though I'm a self-confessed Jack Reacher fan (not to mention "Inspector Grace" among lots of others).
I'll give it/him/them a go (no doubt start looking under the bed covers with a torch tonight )!
AES
You wrote, QUOTE: ... start reading "The corridor man". Makes Jack Reacher look like a slow worm. UNQUOTE.
Thanks a lot for the tip. Never heard of it/him/them, though I'm a self-confessed Jack Reacher fan (not to mention "Inspector Grace" among lots of others).
I'll give it/him/them a go (no doubt start looking under the bed covers with a torch tonight
)!AES
nev
Established Member
Funnily enough it was the new Reacher that sparked my ire. Spooky! So I shall also investigate the Corridor Man.
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Bit of a 'ard boy that bloke Reacher...must get the last one. Will also check out The Corridor man, although I see a few reviewers mentioning:
which isn't a big issue as long as the story is good and well written.
which isn't a big issue as long as the story is good and well written.
Noel,
The reviewer must be the same one I read regarding a hotel, which stated his wife had been assaulted by a security guard and the hotel did nothing. Always disregard the best (written by the owner) and the worst (written by an idiot) of any set of reviews.
Of course he has to buy the next book (unless he reads for free). Its not a series, its a SERIAL! Hello????
Just to give a bigger clue;
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2611 ... rridor-man
The reviewer must be the same one I read regarding a hotel, which stated his wife had been assaulted by a security guard and the hotel did nothing. Always disregard the best (written by the owner) and the worst (written by an idiot) of any set of reviews.
Of course he has to buy the next book (unless he reads for free). Its not a series, its a SERIAL! Hello????
Just to give a bigger clue;
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2611 ... rridor-man
petermillard
Established Member
TBH the reviews for the new Reacher aren't so great either; download a sample chapter, or take a punt on it and make up your own mind. Not sure which is the most amazing - that you can buy a book for the price of a cup of coffee, or that a cup of coffee costs as much as a book...
And FWIW Kindle Unlimited isn't free - it's a subscription service of ~£8/month; great value if you read a lot and can get what you want in the 'unlimited' library.
Cheers, P
And FWIW Kindle Unlimited isn't free - it's a subscription service of ~£8/month; great value if you read a lot and can get what you want in the 'unlimited' library.
Cheers, P
Peter, between us we get way more than our moneys worth from it (but dont tell amazon that). I couldnt afford to buy all the books I read, I would have to give up woodworking to pay for them all.
We have a friend who collects the reacher books, luckily she loans them out for free. Just a matter of waiting our turn.
Another highly addictive SERIAL is The Frontiers Saga by Ryk Brown. But be warned all you folk who buy their books, this one is 16 volumes, spread over 2 different series. make sure you get them in the right order, because theres no reprise at the start of each one.
We have a friend who collects the reacher books, luckily she loans them out for free. Just a matter of waiting our turn.
Another highly addictive SERIAL is The Frontiers Saga by Ryk Brown. But be warned all you folk who buy their books, this one is 16 volumes, spread over 2 different series. make sure you get them in the right order, because theres no reprise at the start of each one.
AES
Established Member
FWIW, I hardly ever read the Amazon book reviews, and I never review them myself - I think opinions on things like books (and music for example) are so personal I can't believe my own opinion is of any value or interest to anyone else.
Personally I just look at subject areas, then titles, then the brief outline of the book that Amazon themselves have published. If that's OK I then order a free sample (which is 99% of the time big enough to give me a real good feel for the book). When I get to the end I either click "Buy" or I delete the sample. Works fine for me and simple.
Perhaps I'm just too easy to please.
AES
Personally I just look at subject areas, then titles, then the brief outline of the book that Amazon themselves have published. If that's OK I then order a free sample (which is 99% of the time big enough to give me a real good feel for the book). When I get to the end I either click "Buy" or I delete the sample. Works fine for me and simple.
Perhaps I'm just too easy to please.
AES
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sunnybob":2aj4elad said:
As said, no big issue for me. Will give the books a go. Some years ago somebody here suggested Jo Nesbo, great writer and think I have a dozen or so on the book shelf. A lot of good stuff out there besides the usual (good) fare from L Child (Reacher), M Connelly, Baldacci, L Barclay, Deaver etc.
devonwoody
Established Member
Yes we are ebook readers in our house these days as well.
Mainly use Overdrive and that takes us to the local library and books are free.
Also have three daughters spread around the country and they let us use their library cards for those areas which differ from Torbay libraries stock.
edit we use the ipad, library books not available on laptops?
Mainly use Overdrive and that takes us to the local library and books are free.
Also have three daughters spread around the country and they let us use their library cards for those areas which differ from Torbay libraries stock.
edit we use the ipad, library books not available on laptops?
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sunnybob":5jp9aqxy said:
Just a quick correction and quote of the first few words of the link
"The first in an exciting new series"
My favourite series is Horatio Hornblower, CS Forester. A superb read. I too and a Jack R fan and I may become a Corridor reader too as I have got the sample of the 1st 3 books.
I'm reading Burmese Days, Orsen Wells, at the moment. A very interesting view of how we lost the Empire and the bigoted view in those days.
AES, why do you need a torche with a Paperwhite? :mrgreen:
AES
Established Member
@Jonzjob:
Torch? Cos the screen is not illuminated.
Before buying the Kindles my wife borrowed another model from a friend which I briefly tried too. As I remember it was a Sony (but not sure now, it was about 4 years ago). Whatever, that reader did have an illuminated screen, and surprisingly enough, just as the pundits said (we did some research before taking the plunge) the illuminated screen seems to be a DIS-advantage - e.g. reading outside in bright sunlight.
Our Kindles do not have an illuminated screen, and again surprisingly, you can read it clearly and easily under just about any ambient light conditions, as per my o.p. But NOT in complete darkness, hence the later "flip" comment about using the torch under the bedclothes. (Shades of my miss-spent youth)
Apart from the lack of illumination making reading the Kindle Paperwhite screen so clear and easy, I GUESS that this is at least one reason for the pretty long battery life (re-charge about once a week after roughly 2-3 hour use per day).
AES
Torch? Cos the screen is not illuminated.
Before buying the Kindles my wife borrowed another model from a friend which I briefly tried too. As I remember it was a Sony (but not sure now, it was about 4 years ago). Whatever, that reader did have an illuminated screen, and surprisingly enough, just as the pundits said (we did some research before taking the plunge) the illuminated screen seems to be a DIS-advantage - e.g. reading outside in bright sunlight.
Our Kindles do not have an illuminated screen, and again surprisingly, you can read it clearly and easily under just about any ambient light conditions, as per my o.p. But NOT in complete darkness, hence the later "flip" comment about using the torch under the bedclothes. (Shades of my miss-spent youth)
Apart from the lack of illumination making reading the Kindle Paperwhite screen so clear and easy, I GUESS that this is at least one reason for the pretty long battery life (re-charge about once a week after roughly 2-3 hour use per day).
AES
thetyreman
Established Member
I've recently build a wooden bookcase for all my real books, I can read them offline whenever I want, as many times as I want, it's brilliant.
