Earning a living from wood working

[mister henderson]

Women will usually be the first to tell you that they have difficulty in visualising things from drawings. When they are selecting items for their home, or even the home itself, they want to be able to look at it, feel it, walk around it, sit on or in it, to experience the item itself in every appropriate way. They can't do this from drawings.

Most women, offered the choice of
going to a cabinet maker's workshop and havng a bespoke item made for them, from drawings that they will have to approve, ready in maybe 3 months,
or of going to a furniture store of whatever type will suit their available budget, having a good look at maybe a dozen different items which might suit, and being able to have any of those items in their home tomorrow................ well, which do you think they are going to choose?


As for the type of furniture seen in shops? Well, I can guarantee you that virtually every item sold in a furniture shop will have cost the shop owner less than half of the price on the ticket.

If any woodworker fancies selling through shops the only feasible way of doing that is for them to own the shop itself, and to keep the profit that the shop owner is going to require for the substantial investment that they will have made before they even open the doors. To open a decent furniture shop, with a decent quantity of decent stock, in a nice area with adequate advertising in suitable publications would probably require £100,000 (for rented premises).

 

[bugbear]

...but I suspect that most makers get by with turning out more utilitarian stuff at a price point closer to that offered by the bigger commercial stores, but with the advantage of being able to give the customer a fairly broad base (within limits) of design concepts and materials - Rob

My point, limited though it is, is that people willing to provide this service, at this price, ought to put M&S, John Lewis etc out of (the furniture) business.

But they're not.

BugBear

 

[compo]

I pretty much well agree with you bb.

The trouble is that although a lot of people can see the difference and the advantages of using craftsmen built furniture, many are in this forum.
Unfortunately it's the old adage of preaching to the converted.

However, there are a lot of people out there with a lot of money who understand quality costs. It's a global market nowadays.

The trick is to try and tell our story to the people who should be buying our stuff. This is the problem for a lot of makers. As already mentioned, it's a case of marketing our services and our trade in general.

I think woodbloke has a point, to a point. Yes, it would be lovely to produce only 'fine' furniture. However, everyone has to start somewhere. Even a ticket from Parham (example) bags of money or a huge, wealthy contact list are not guarantees of success. It's about finding your niche and developing your client base and unfortunately unless you are self sustainable, you will have to take on a few of the more routine jobs in the meantime. BUT, you never know, who knows who and where that last job may take you.

I too say stand tall, be different and creative, shout about the virtues of bespoke and ALWAYS do your best on every job and maybe, one day there'll be a run of only really good stuff.

In the meantime... yes madam, of course I can make it with adjustable shelves!

 

[OPJ]

Most women, offered the choice of
going to a cabinet maker's workshop and havng a bespoke item made for them, from drawings that they will have to approve, ready in maybe 3 months,
or of going to a furniture store of whatever type will suit their available budget, having a good look at maybe a dozen different items which might suit, and being able to have any of those items in their home tomorrow................ well, which do you think they are going to choose?

That's a very good point.

Once (if!) you become established with your own, unique 'style' of furniture, you could then look at setting up a gallery next to your workshop. Not sure what your wife might say if you "borrow" the living room though... :wink: If you search for cabinet and furniture makers in your area you'll probably find that more of the medium-sized companies have such facilities available to the public.

 

[BradNaylor]

Thanks to McLuma for getting this thread back on track - even though I was one of the culprits for sending it the other way!

You are quite right - fine furniture is all about design, not construction methods or the skilled use of hand tools.

You are also right in your assertion that women are the main decision makers when it comes to home furnishings - and here lies part of the problem.

Mr Henderson rightly points out that women in general (and I'm on dangerous ground now!) find it difficult to make a decision based upon drawings. I'm not saying they lack imagination, but in the majority of cases they find it impossible to imagine what a finshed project is going to look like, even if the most detailed drawings have been prepared. :lol:

The other thing you get to learn when dealing with a lot of women is that function takes precedence over form when it comes to furniture. Yes, it's got to look nice, but far more important is whether it is easy to clean!

This I feel, explains most women's obsession with fitted furniture. It's neat, it's tidy, there are no awkward nooks and crannies. Nothing can fall down the back.

Hence, as a furniture maker, the majority of the requests one gets are for fitted furniture. Even when husbands get involved and want a freestanding piece fot their study, it is normally for a specific purpose like housing a plasma telly or a drinks cabinet. Apart from stating a preference for a particular wood and style of door most clients are really not that bothered so long as it fits the purpose for which it is going to be put. Most of my commissions are gained after knocking out a 3 minute sketch in pencil on a sheet of A4. So much for the 'design process'!

Occasionally though, you meet the client that is different. Where the design is the principle concern and days - weeks even - are spent perfecting drawings and computer generated sketches for approval. Wood samples are prepared in a veriaty of finishes.

We have a name for this kind of client.




A 'pain in the pineapple!'

:lol:

Cheers
Dan

 

[bugbear]

I pretty much well agree with you bb.

The trouble is that although a lot of people can see the difference and the advantages of using craftsmen built furniture, many are in this forum.
Unfortunately it's the old adage of preaching to the converted.

My (horrid) suspicion is that the sort of person who is willing to pay 800-1000 quid for an oak refectory table in M&S or John Lewis or Habitat doesn't KNOW that a cabinetmaker will do bespoke (sized) work for around the same money, and thinks thinks that commissioning a cabinet maker is for oligarchs only.

For example - if I were a 'umble customer, who'd seen a table in Habitat, but wanted a similar table 1 foot longer, how easy is it to explore the possibility of having a furniture maker do it?

How do I find a maker (bonus question: how do I find more than one, so I have a choice, without offending both of them?)

How would I (a potential customer) even know the CRUCIAL fact that custom work of this type is (in fact) available at around the same price as Habitat et al?

BugBear

 

[mister henderson]

Let’s have a chat about the actual figures that might be involved in making a living from woodworking.

First of all, let’s consider the overheads, and here I’m assuming that the cabinet maker is not starting with some natural advantages such as a large workshop in his back garden, or a wife who is a head teacher.

OK, to rent a workshop. Going to need maybe 500 sq ft, with another maybe 200sq ft for a showroom (which I consider essential, and for reasons already discussed). 700 sq ft at say £3.50 (we’re talking farm prices here) per sq ft per annum, lets say we can get the whole thing for £50 a week. Then the insurance and rates, maybe another £50 and then heating (got to keep that wood DRY) and electricity maybe another £50. I think I am being reasonably optimistic with these figures, BTW.

Now the advertising. I think you need to be thinking at least £200 a week here, as no-one is going to visit a farm workshop without having been told about it (in advertising philosophy, told at least 6 times).

There’s the car, or course. Volvo estate would be pretty much the minimum here, a long wheelbase van would be better. £30 pw sound reasonable? Don’t need to allow for petrol here because that isn’t overhead.

Wages. Good question. Let’s say £400 a week. I know one could manage on less, maybe, but that’s not going to allow for much of a mortgage payment.

So, all in all a NET profit of £800 a week is going to be needed in the above example. If we take Bugbear’s example of the table at around £800-1000, then we are going to need to make and (more to the point) SELL, more than one a week (and that’s a 52 week year of course) to make a living.

The above is why I say that, in general terms, it is not possible for a person to make a living in cabinet making in this country at the moment. Your mileage may vary.

 

[big soft moose]

Let’s have a chat about the actual figures that might be involved in making a living from woodworking.

First of all, let’s consider the overheads, and here I’m assuming that the cabinet maker is not starting with some natural advantages such as a large workshop in his back garden, or a wife who is a head teacher.

OK, to rent a workshop. Going to need maybe 500 sq ft, with another maybe 200sq ft for a showroom (which I consider essential, and for reasons already discussed). 700 sq ft at say £3.50 (we’re talking farm prices here) per sq ft per annum, lets say we can get the whole thing for £50 a week.

thats a good point , but anyone who is going from a hobby to a buisness (and i doubt many people are going to start a wood working buisness with no prior experience, will already have a workshop probably at home - so rent isnt an issue (tho usage/noise restrictions maybe)

Then the insurance and rates, maybe another £50 and then heating (got to keep that wood DRY) and electricity maybe another £50. I think I am being reasonably optimistic with these figures, BTW.

Now the advertising. I think you need to be thinking at least £200 a week here, as no-one is going to visit a farm workshop without having been told about it (in advertising philosophy, told at least 6 times).

There’s the car, or course. Volvo estate would be pretty much the minimum here, a long wheelbase van would be better. £30 pw sound reasonable? Don’t need to allow for petrol here because that isn’t overhead.

Wages. Good question. Let’s say £400 a week. I know one could manage on less, maybe, but that’s not going to allow for much of a mortgage payment.

So, all in all a NET profit of £800 a week is going to be needed in the above example. If we take Bugbear’s example of the table at around £800-1000, then we are going to need to make and (more to the point) SELL, more than one a week (and that’s a 52 week year of course) to make a living.

The above is why I say that, in general terms, it is not possible for a person to make a living in cabinet making in this country at the moment. Your mileage may vary.

also with the exception of "wages" which dont exist as such if you are a sole trader all of the rest is tax deductible (or in the case of larger items depreciable) so it isnt NET profit but GROSS.

and £400 per week gross wages = 1600 per month or £19,200 pa and many people who are in paid jobs pull down significantly less - tho you do have a point about mortgages , but then a lot of people casnt afford property anyway.

It may not be possible to earn a living as a cabinet maker - this not being my field i couldnt sensibly comment (i'm principally a turner) but it is possible to make a living as a general woodworker - for that you dont need the showroom and your advertsing is far less (my general woodwork is done in clients homes , whilst turnings are out put through craft fairs and shops)

the key is to keep your costs reasonable and not to take on the trappings of a bigger buisness (such as showrooms, large advertising budgets etc) if you dont need to - as some one said higher up , "keep it small and keep it all"

 

[mister henderson]

Let’s have a chat about the actual figures that might be involved in making a living from woodworking.

First of all, let’s consider the overheads, and here I’m assuming that the cabinet maker is not starting with some natural advantages such as a large workshop in his back garden, or a wife who is a head teacher.

OK, to rent a workshop. Going to need maybe 500 sq ft, with another maybe 200sq ft for a showroom (which I consider essential, and for reasons already discussed). 700 sq ft at say £3.50 (we’re talking farm prices here) per sq ft per annum, lets say we can get the whole thing for £50 a week.

thats a good point , but anyone who is going from a hobby to a buisness (and i doubt many people are going to start a wood working buisness with no prior experience, will already have a workshop probably at home - so rent isnt an issue (tho usage/noise restrictions maybe)

I did specifically exclude large garden workshops, as a small one would be no good for general cabinet making anyway (refectory table in a 12x8 shed, I don't think so)

Then the insurance and rates, maybe another £50 and then heating (got to keep that wood DRY) and electricity maybe another £50. I think I am being reasonably optimistic with these figures, BTW.

Now the advertising. I think you need to be thinking at least £200 a week here, as no-one is going to visit a farm workshop without having been told about it (in advertising philosophy, told at least 6 times).

There’s the car, or course. Volvo estate would be pretty much the minimum here, a long wheelbase van would be better. £30 pw sound reasonable? Don’t need to allow for petrol here because that isn’t overhead.

Wages. Good question. Let’s say £400 a week. I know one could manage on less, maybe, but that’s not going to allow for much of a mortgage payment.

So, all in all a NET profit of £800 a week is going to be needed in the above example. If we take Bugbear’s example of the table at around £800-1000, then we are going to need to make and (more to the point) SELL, more than one a week (and that’s a 52 week year of course) to make a living.

The above is why I say that, in general terms, it is not possible for a person to make a living in cabinet making in this country at the moment. Your mileage may vary.

also with the exception of "wages" which dont exist as such if you are a sole trader all of the rest is tax deductible (or in the case of larger items depreciable) so it isnt NET profit but GROSS.

and £400 per week gross wages = 1600 per month or £19,200 pa and many people who are in paid jobs pull down significantly less - tho you do have a point about mortgages , but then a lot of people casnt afford property anyway.

It may not be possible to earn a living as a cabinet maker - this not being my field i couldnt sensibly comment (i'm principally a turner) but it is possible to make a living as a general woodworker - for that you dont need the showroom and your advertsing is far less (my general woodwork is done in clients homes , whilst turnings are out put through craft fairs and shops)

the key is to keep your costs reasonable and not to take on the trappings of a bigger buisness (such as showrooms, large advertising budgets etc) if you dont need to - as some one said higher up , "keep it small and keep it all"

I think you have misunderstood the difference between gross profit and net profit, whether something is tax deductible of not is irrelevant. Gross profit is simply put, the difference between what you buy the material for, and the money that you get for the finished article.
Net profit is the amount of profit which is left after all the overhead has been paid. This is all in simple terms, of course.

Something needs to be allowed for the WW's pay, how much would you suggest?

 

[BradNaylor]

OK, to rent a workshop. Going to need maybe 500 sq ft, with another maybe 200sq ft for a showroom (which I consider essential, and for reasons already discussed). 700 sq ft at say £3.50 (we’re talking farm prices here) per sq ft per annum, lets say we can get the whole thing for £50 a week. Then the insurance and rates, maybe another £50 and then heating (got to keep that wood DRY) and electricity maybe another £50. I think I am being reasonably optimistic with these figures, BTW.

I think you're about right with the size - 700-800 sq ft is perfect. However, while a showroom would be nice it is definitely not necessary. That 200 sq ft would be far better turned over to a finishing area, ideally with a spray booth installed.

There are ways of having pieces on display which don't involve having a showroom. For instance, an entire office can be built into a nice cabinet situated in the corner of the workshop, housing your PC, printer, phone, and files. Similarly, your 'brew area' can be on a beautifully crafted kitchen sink unit. Most people actually like to visit a working workshop rather than a showroom. A couple of examples of what you can do as outlined above backed up with a portfolio of photographs is more than sufficient.

You are being very optimistic with the rent - but you may be right about the price of farm buildings. See my comments below, however. I'll go along with your other costings, but what about telephone costs, consumables (router cutters, sanding discs, blade sharpening etc), accountancy fees, stationery (a LOT of printer cartridges) - the list goes on!

Now the advertising. I think you need to be thinking at least £200 a week here, as no-one is going to visit a farm workshop without having been told about it (in advertising philosophy, told at least 6 times).

£200 pw is a bit over the top. The 6 times rule may pertain in a normal retail business but as a cabinetmaker you are not trying to attract impulse buyers; you just need to make yourself easy to find when a person looks for someone who can make them some furniture.

The answer is a website which is easily accessible through local searches on Google and Yahoo. This is easy to do yourself using a simple web design package such as WebPlus - about £30 - and a little time spent registering your site with all the search engines and as many free directories as you can find. Costs - negligible.

A small ad under 'Cabinet Makers' in Yellow Pages also works well in my experience. Make sure it features your website address though. Cost - about £200 per year.

The other important thing to consider when attracting work is the location of your workshop. My premises are just off the high street of a suburban area of a large town on the outskirts of Manchester. It is on the main route to the wealthiest area locally. Although urban, there is a 'village' atmosphere like you find in many such places. For the last four months I have placed an 'A' board on the main road directing passers by to our workshop. The results have been astonishing! In that time that board has brought in orders totalling over £20,000. For an outlay of a hundred quid! Not only that, but my mate who shares the workshop with me and myself are now becoming accepted as the 'Village Carpenters'. Not a day goes by without at least a couple of potential clients popping their heads round the door.

None of this would happen if we were stuck out on a farm 10 miles away. Our experience suggests that it is better to pay a little more in rent to get a location with plenty of passing trade, particularly affluent commuters.

There’s the car, or course. Volvo estate would be pretty much the minimum here, a long wheelbase van would be better. £30 pw sound reasonable? Don’t need to allow for petrol here because that isn’t overhead.

The family estate car is fine. I use a Zafira. A tow-bar and trailer can turn it into a van at minimal cost. For big deliveries get a local 'Man and Van' in - about £30 per hour.

Accountants tend to class petrol as a 'cost of sale' rather than an overhead. I disagree. A lot of fuel is used making repeat trips to clients' homes and in my case to the timber yard - I like to select my own wood. I look at fuel as an overhead.

Wages. Good question. Let’s say £400 a week. I know one could manage on less, maybe, but that’s not going to allow for much of a mortgage payment.

20 grand a year? You could earn that at Tescos!

I think it is important to set oneself realistic but ambitious goals. A lot of my friends are tradesmen - electricians, plasterers, plumbers etc. On average, they earn between £500 and £800 per week. One regularly earns over £1000. School teachers and policemen of my age earn over £40k a year. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect to be able to earn at similar levels.

I aim to earn £1000 per week. Of course I don't always achieve it, but if you aim high you normally achieve more than if you aim low.

Things happen. Jobs take longer than planned. Mistakes get made. Days you planned to spend in the workshop are instead spent locating a particular size of Belfast sink (that happened to me last week!). So you need to build in a significant factor to allow for it. Aim at making £200 per day or £1000 per week and there's a fair chance that you'll make £750. That is how the costings should be based.

So, all in all a NET profit of £800 a week is going to be needed in the above example. If we take Bugbear’s example of the table at around £800-1000, then we are going to need to make and (more to the point) SELL, more than one a week (and that’s a 52 week year of course) to make a living.

The table's too cheap!

£1500 minimum.

The above is why I say that, in general terms, it is not possible for a person to make a living in cabinet making in this country at the moment.

Not true - plenty do it.

As I've said in previous posts though, you've got to be flexible on your definition of 'cabinetmaking'. Profit is the most important thing - not your own preferences on what it is you are going to make.

Some of the most profitable work is the most dull. Relacement doors for fitted wardrobes in MDF and then painted, for instance. Before anyone turns their noses up at the idea, consider this;

Materials - £100
Time spent - 5 days including fitting
Price charged - £1500

This is an everyday job that the true professional jumps at. The important thing is to make a profit!!

In years to come, I hope to be doing less of this kind of job and more 'fine cabinetmaking'. I can see though, that it is only by establishing a profitable 'bread and butter' business that I will be able to allow myself the indulgence.

£400 per week gross wages = 1600 per month or £19,200 pa and many people who are in paid jobs pull down significantly less - tho you do have a point about mortgages , but then a lot of people casnt afford property anyway.

It may not be possible to earn a living as a cabinet maker - this not being my field i couldnt sensibly comment (i'm principally a turner) but it is possible to make a living as a general woodworker - for that you dont need the showroom and your advertsing is far less (my general woodwork is done in clients homes , whilst turnings are out put through craft fairs and shops)

the key is to keep your costs reasonable and not to take on the trappings of a bigger buisness (such as showrooms, large advertising budgets etc) if you dont need to - as some one said higher up , "keep it small and keep it all"

I said that!

It doesn't mean that you can't aim high in terms of earnings, however!

My (horrid) suspicion is that the sort of person who is willing to pay 800-1000 quid for an oak refectory table in M&S or John Lewis or Habitat doesn't KNOW that a cabinetmaker will do bespoke (sized) work for around the same money, and thinks thinks that commissioning a cabinet maker is for oligarchs only.

For example - if I were a 'umble customer, who'd seen a table in Habitat, but wanted a similar table 1 foot longer, how easy is it to explore the possibility of having a furniture maker do it?

How do I find a maker (bonus question: how do I find more than one, so I have a choice, without offending both of them?)

How would I (a potential customer) even know the CRUCIAL fact that custom work of this type is (in fact) available at around the same price as Habitat et al?

Judging by the amount of emails I get from all over the country making just such enquiries plenty of people are searching for cabinetmakers on the internet. You've just got to make yourself visible and explain in your website what you can do.

My slogan is 'You draw it - I'll make it!

It works a treat. It also saves on the amount of time I spend drawing designs!

Cheers
Dan

 

[Digit]

The original question was about making a living from woodwork but seems to have wandered from the general to the specific, furniture making.
The answer to the general is 'yes', to the specific, 'very difficult'.
I know two people who work full time running such businesses and their bread and butter seems to be doors and windows in hardwoods.
Here in west Wales I think the original population must have been 4ft 8 high and 5ft 8 wide judging by the very non-standard door and window sizes.
Faced with a doorway at 5ft 6 high and 3ft plus wide timber costs are less of a problem than labour costs.
Windows can of course be PVC but frequently the planning authorities prefer timber in the older properties so these two have found a niche.

Roy.

 

[big soft moose]

I think you have misunderstood the difference between gross profit and net profit, whether something is tax deductible of not is irrelevant. Gross profit is simply put, the difference between what you buy the material for, and the money that you get for the finished article.
Net profit is the amount of profit which is left after all the overhead has been paid. This is all in simple terms, of course.

Something needs to be allowed for the WW's pay, how much would you suggest?

According to the tax office - gross is your buisnes's total income (ie the total ammount of money paid to you by your customers), net is your income minus the costs of your material and everything else which is deductible , depreciable etc - your tax is then worked out on the net ammount.

the fine detail of overheads , costs of sales etc have largly passed me by but the tax office seem happy with my simple breakdown (possible because i'm not making wads of cash , and the biz isnt my only source of income anyway)

Also being a sole trader not a ltd company which may keep things more simple

i'm not looking for a dispute about this , and am happy to agree to differ - i just feel that

a) the person starting out needs to adhere to the KISS principal (keep it simple, stupid)

and

b) there are more options to making a living from wood work than making fine furniture (turning, carving, scrolling, greenwoodwork, garden furniture, fitting out boats, fitting out vans , making widows and doors , subbing as a chippy.... to name but a few)

 

[BradNaylor]

Without getting bogged down in pedantry, gross profit is your selling price less the cost of materials, and nett profit is what is left after you have deducted all your overhead costs.

So if you sell a cabinet for £1000 and the materials cost you £200, your gross profit is £800.

If your overhead costs during the time it took you to make were £150, your nett profit on the cabinet is £650. If you are a sole trader this is your 'earnings'.

If you trade as a limited company then you will be paid a salary by the company of say, £500. The company will also pay NI contributions on your behalf to HMRC of around £50.

So the company's nett profit on the cabinet is £100.

All this is very dull, but anyone starting their own business needs to have a grasp of it.

Cheers
Dan

 

[lurker]

A few years ago - I was earning a salary of £22K and was considering going freelance. This is not woodwork, as I would not stand a snowballs chance in hell of earning a living at that!

I sat down with an accountant friend to cost up my hourly rate and we came to a figure of £60 per hour to bring home the same money.

I needed no tools & equipment, just an office at home + a car.

 

[Mcluma]

A few years ago - I was earning a salary of £22K and was considering going freelance. This is not woodwork, as I would not stand a snowballs chance in hell of earning a living at that!

I sat down with an accountant friend to cost up my hourly rate and we came to a figure of £60 per hour to bring home the same money.

I needed no tools & equipment, just an office at home + a car.

TBH your accountant needs to go back to school,

£60ph by 8 hours a day by 5 days a week by 50 weeks of work (2 weeks hols is a total income of £120K

single office at £500 per month (business centres charge you 375 per ws per mnth all inclusive) £6k
You buy a bloody beemer a 50K resale value at 20k after 3 years so tax depreciatelble value 10K

so income before income tax (as you are a sole trader) £104K at lets say 40% is a net income of £62.4K

I take it you never became self employed then??

 

[Karl]

Mcluma

You've missed out VAT - as his turnover would (on your calculations) exceed £67k. A nice (extra) slice to go to the taxman.

But I don't think it's as simple as saying "8hr days, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year, all at £60 per hour".

Lurker may have had 6 weeks holiday entitlement in his salaried job. I doubt his accountant would have assumed full productivity, 8hrs a day. Probably half that. He may not even work 5 days a week. And he would have to start his new biz from scratch.

Without knowing what line of biz L's in, its hard to make such sweeping generalisations.

Cheers

Karl

 

[Mcluma]

Mcluma

You've missed out VAT - as his turnover would (on your calculations) exceed £67k. A nice (extra) slice to go to the taxman.

But I don't think it's as simple as saying "8hr days, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year, all at £60 per hour".

Lurker may have had 6 weeks holiday entitlement in his salaried job. I doubt his accountant would have assumed full productivity, 8hrs a day. Probably half that. He may not even work 5 days a week. And he would have to start his new biz from scratch.

Without knowing what line of biz L's in, its hard to make such sweeping generalisations.

Cheers

Karl

sorry karl but when he say he charges £60 per hour then it plus vat (that is how accountants work :wink: )

so vat is no issue here

ok we charge at 1650 billable hours, (as selfemployed you reckon on more) so income is 99K les the 16K costs

still the accountant made an error

 

[Karl]

Mcluma - I know how accountants treat VAT - I used to be one (specialising in Insolvency matters). So I have a pretty good handle on how businesses work.

I don't think it will do this thread any good to get bogged down in Lurkers post.

Cheers

Karl

 

[Mcluma]

Mcluma - I know how accountants treat VAT - I used to be one (specialising in Insolvency matters). So I have a pretty good handle on how businesses work.

I don't think it will do this thread any good to get bogged down in Lurkers post.

Cheers

Karl

I agree

 

[Tierney]

I'm an accountant, and I've been dreaming about becoming a cabinetmaker; but, from reading this the idea of sticking with my day job and being paid a set wage everymonth is more appealing.

Hopefully when I retire I can try my hand at earning a living from woodworking; hey, if it only pays for more tools then it still sounds like heaven.

David