Dust Extraction... Ducting etc...

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matt

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Miles away - totally impractical...
In addition to my air filter investment I'm also looking to sort out the ducting on my extractor too. It's a Record DX5000 so I'm planning to use plastic soil pipe, running a single straight down the length of the garage with outlets along the way somehow or other...

What I'm trying to work out is whether the adapters etc for ducting available from tool shops are a direct fit to 100mm soil pipe? Similarly, the smaller bore adapters etc. Are they designed to work with soil pipe or is it a bit of a lash-up?

Cheers
 
UK soil pipe is 110mm OD not 100mm

Either you can buy 100mm pipe in France and possibly other parts of europe when on holiday (I do!) or the 100mm blast gates from Axminster or others can be glued in to UK pipes with builders foam and the 100mm flexi hose fixed to the other side of the gate.

Bob
 
I'm not sure if it's the case in the UK, but over here in Ireland i struggled to find plastic ducting that could even match the prices for spiral ducting. Dimensions seemed limited too.

It's worth noting that spiral ducting prices vary a lot, but that if you can find a smaller manufacturer you can deal directly with it can save a lot compared to those retailing it under brand names.

As a result i can't answer your question directly, but whatever fittings you use should end up well sealed, and should not result in steps or restrictions inside the pipe.

Static is another issue with plastic. There's mixed views about, but most seem to think it's OK on smaller systems.

On the DX 5000. I'm not familiar with that sort of unit so please correct me if i've got it wrong, but the adverts quote it as delivering 106 litres/sec of airflow. If my conversion is correct that comes out at about 225 cubic feet per minute which by published standards is tight for even for chip collection, never mind the capture of fine dust at machines. What it doesn't say is how much pressure drop (suction) it generates, or at what pressure drop the 106 L/sec are delivered.

I'd want to check it out before using it with ductwork. Firstly anything more than the shortest possible run of hose might drop the airflow so low that it struggles. (it may only be designed to function with a short hose - but it might maintain its cfm fairly decently over distance if it maintains its volume over larger pressure drops more like a vacuum than a typical dust system blower)

Secondly it takes 4,000 feet per minute airspeed to reliably transport chips up a vertical duct, and if 225 cfm is the genuine airflow that would mean no larger than about a 3inch diameter duct which is small by comparison to what's normally used.

It mightn't be any harm to check out its suitability for use with ducting with Record...

ian
 
Some useful advice. Thanks all.

I bought the DX5000 because it's been described as ideal for a centralised system (which is handy given that it hangs on the wall :D ) Are there similar machines at this sort of price with the specs that you describe that are capable of running a centralised system or are they are masquerading as suitable when they're not?

I've paused for thought... Perhaps I should be considering a 75mm system? Opening up to 100mm at the machine connection (or down to 38mm for the router table).

FWIW I don't need to vac chips (other than those that come of the lathe which are small and it seemed to handle those OK). I don't have a planer. It dust that I want to suck!
 
9fingers":25vdoqs0 said:
Either you can buy 100mm pipe in France and possibly other parts of europe when on holiday (I do!)
Bob
Bet you had a job getting some of that on the aircraft back from Cyprus Bob! :lol: - Rob
 
woodbloke":2c5hzuid said:
9fingers":2c5hzuid said:
Either you can buy 100mm pipe in France and possibly other parts of europe when on holiday (I do!)
Bob
Bet you had a job getting some of that on the aircraft back from Cyprus Bob! :lol: - Rob

I did not need any this time Rob. Still some left from last years trip to France.
Hardly takes any extra room in the car as you can slide bottles of wine inside :lol:

Bob
 
Another vote for spiral ducting. Another advantage of it is that it gives some flexibility in jointing angles if your ducting path is not completely straight. It is easy to "steal" 5 or 10 deg on a joint, thus avoiding the need for short friction creating sections of flexi hose, which is not possible with drain pipe.

Jim
 
I have the dx5000 also and i have it rigged up to all my machines useing soil pipe with blast gates put in on the machine end and flexi hose into the machine.
It is all clipped up against the wall you will find that the 100mm flexi hose will screw into the soil pipe end which is ending with a seal in it i have no problems with chips or dust a very good and effective system imo.
 
I also have the dx5000. I have it ducted to a spindle, planer/thicknesser, saw & radial arm. I have used the spiral ducting after reading some horror stories about static setting fire to workshops. If i was doing it again i would probably go for a more powerful extractor but if the cloth filter is hoovered out regularly then it works ok.

Woodguy
 
Hi Matt. The issues on wood dust/chip collection seem to be that (a) the system needs to draw in enough air to the machine inlet (the machine hood, guard, collector etc plays a big part in this) to create a fast enough (they say 50 feet/sec) flow into the system across a large enough bubble/volume/sphere around the point of work to prevent the spray of fine dust flung away by the blade from escaping into the shop.

It (b) needs enough air velocity inside the duct to carry dust and chips along without it settling out and leading to a blockage/fire risk. This is where the 4000 ft/min number comes in - there's a max duct size for which a given volume of air (cubic feet per minute) delivers this velocity, or something above it.

The other key bit of information is that it takes much less volume to do a good job of collecting visible sawdust and chips (around 350 cfm is the figure quoted for most machines) than it does to trap the finer invisible sub micron dust that it truly dangerous. (our lungs can't clear it out)

The likes of Bill Pentz (he has some excellent web pages on dust collection and systems - he comes up easily by name on Google) suggests that you need around 6 - 700 cfm to meet the US OSHA air cleanliness standards, and around 1,000cfm to meet what's medically known to be safe. This latter needs a duct size of around 6 inches to keep the pressure drop reasonable in a small shop.

He suggests that you need a much finer 99.99% efficient at 0.3 micron filter to deliver safely filtered air, and that you need a cyclone to drop out the dust and ships before filters this fine to stop them blocking far too quickly.

He's done an enormous amount of testing, and argues that most DIY/hobby level dust systems (a) don't have a big enough motor or fan impeller to shift the required air volumes - but that many fake it for advertising numbers by testing against an unrestricted fan inlet (no ducting) and probably with no filters; and (b) use filters so coarse (to avoid overly frequent cleaning, and to maximise flow) that they just recirculate the fine dust back into the room.

They then use small ducting (100mm and similar) to maintain a high enough air speed to prevent blocking with a low enough air volume not to overload the fan motor.

We tend to find these systems to work OK (even if they need very frequent filter cleaning) because so far as we know they do a decent job on the coarse chips and dust we can see.

The problem of course is that while you can have lots of suction/pressure drop (which enables smaller/longer duct runs) or quite decent volume (which gives good collection) alone with smaller motors and duct sizes you can't have both. It takes around a 4hp fan and 6 in ducting for example to deliver around 1000cfm and 4000fpm in a small shop.

Bill's testing is the background i was drawing on in commenting on the 106 L/sec/225cfm volume of the DX 5000. I can't say for sure, but it's hard by his data to see it doing more than lifting the visible dust and chips.

The problem with adding more ducting is that for every metre of duct you get a given amount more pressure drop. The nature of fans is such that as you increase the restriction on the suction side the volume of air moved is reduced. (so is the HP drawn - so it doesn't cause overloading)

On positive side the 2KW of the DX5000 is a lot more motor than your average bag and filter system, so the chances are (but i've seen no info on the ads i checked) it delivers a lot of suction/pressure drop at its 106 L/sec/225cfm. (i.e. that it will tolerate quite a long run of ducting, or a restrictive filter with relatively little reduction in volume flow) This if actually the case means it should perform much better with more hose length, and on the restrictive dust collection arrangements on many machines than the typical radial impeller 1 hp basic bag and filter dust systems sold to us hobbyists. By the ads it also has a 0.5 micron filter which should be much finer than the typical DIY bag system too - the extra suction probably makes it feasible to use this.

Hope this helps...

ian
 
hi, i used 100mm smooth bore non perforated drainage pipe. the black 100mm plastic fittings fit perfectly snug no need to glue them in ! works a treat and much cheaper than metal ducting.don't buy plastic blast gates they are dung!!!!. and remember to use y junctions and not tees!
 
Thanks Ian for taking the time to explain. I do understand and it certainly registers on my sceptism nerve (currently twitching on the subject of air filters in another thread).

I had the extractor fitted to my tablesaw today as I sat on the floor and observed as I poked trapped bits of dust on the inside of the saw through the hole in the front just to see whether they were whisked away or not. I couldn't quite make out what was happening, however, I think I need to do some extra work around the extraction for that particular machine!
 
I too am in the process on installing 110mm soil pipe in my workshop for the ducting. I'm using soil pipe to home made blast gates. The plastic ones that came with a kit are rubbish.

The blast gate bodies are made out of plywood and the sliding part made out of mdf. All made from offcuts. One side of the blastgate glued to the 110mm soil pipe and the other end I used 100mm hose joiners cut in half and glued in place.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axmi ... -22310.htm

Drop hoses can then be attached to the gate and machine.

Doesn't take very long to make the glast gates and the are so much better than the plastic ones. The sliding part can also be removed making them much easier to clean with sawdust build up. I encorporated a bracket into my gates so they can be fixed to the wall too.

Now I just need to find the time to build a cyclone. :lol:

Hope this makes sence.

Cheers,
Sam
 
What is the problem with the plastic blast gates?
I've been using them for a couple of years now without a problem.

I think they are Axi ones - I got them secondhand.

Bob
 

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